Did England Make Any Progress At World Cup?

[The Fury 65]

Can someone make this a new thread as I can't seem to do it on android phone but thought it would be interesting to see what everyone thought of England overall

[King 277]

England's World Cup, LOL

 

Yeah just LOL really, also Roy to be sacked in the next month or so.

[Omega 354]

Bullshit, I felt more positive about England after this tournament than I ever did after Capello. Roy picked youth over experience and gambled on playing a new team that was dicked in any of their games and they played good sides. We mixed things up, weren't afraid to try different things and players. People calling for his head are talking dangly nutsacks.

[King 277]

How are you feeling positive when they are yet to gain a point and already knocked out of the group??

 

It says it all when they play Costa Rica who will be favourites, yes Costa Rica, will be favourite against the mighty England.

 

Please...., England especially under Roy are toilet.

[Guest bigmatt]

Roy picked youth over experience

 

Did he? Not an anti-Hodgson point but I've heard this elsewhere and the only young player he took a punt on was Sterling. The only other starting players under 25 were Henderson and Sturridge who virtually pick themselves and Wellbeck.

[Omega 354]

In a starting 11 maybe but the SQUAD was very young or inexperienced in terms of games for england.

[King 277]

Youth was in the squad but he never really picked them, he should have though, you watch in the next few weeks "oh let's build for the future", but when they get home, BOOOOOM, slaughtered!!

[Guest bigmatt]

In a starting 11 maybe but the SQUAD was very young or inexperienced in terms of games for england.

 

He took Shaw over Cole which is a tick in that box but looking at the rest of the squad the only players that are under 25 are Chris Smalling, Phil Jones, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Jack Wilshere and Ross Barkley who all seem like straightforward picks to me. Which experienced or older players missed out so that Roy could pick them?

[Guest Boyo]

I think you're being a bit harsh King. I think England have been ok this World Cup, I really do, and I find it funny people crowing about how poo England are going to be in the World Cup and, when they go out, complain about it.

 

I think what this competition is showing is that the best players in the world play too many games. Spanish players haven't had a summer off since 2009, most of the starters for England, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina... play for the big Champions League clubs in 60+ games a season, are seeing less than emphatic performances as nations in the World Cup. Germany, of whom the majority of their players play in the winter-breaked Bundesliga, seem to be doing ok. It's not a hard n fast bit of logic but, generally, it's true.

 

There's no way anyone - ANYONE - from Costa Rica's XI gets into the XI's of England, Italy or Uruguay. No way. But yet here we are and Costa Rica are sitting pretty at the top of the group of death, the group they were predicted to be whipping boys. Real Madrid aren't going to buy Bryan Ruiz this summer, but they might buy Luis Suarez, Edinson Cavani or Mario Balotelli, regardless of who gets knocked out this Tuesday.

 

A lot of the better performances have come from sides playing a high intensity game in the stifling heat. Chile and Holland, for example, murdered Spain. Both teams have one or two stars (Robben and RVP, Vidal and Alexis) and the remainder are fair t'middlin players smattered with exciting youth perhaps. They're not better players than Spain, they're not a better team than Spain, but they are far less exhausted than Spain.

 

I've been saying, along with many, that Liverpool have had the season they've had because they've played 25% less games than anyone else, and I think we're seeing the same in this World Cup.

 

But going specifically back to England, I think they've done about as well as could be expected. Joe Hart, Gary Cahill, Danny Welbeck and Wayne Rooney were the only starters who played in the Champions League last season. As harsh as it may sound, Uruguay had South Africa 2010 golden boot winner on the bench, England had a 32 year old journeyman who was playing for Bristol Rovers(?) 4 years ago. I know Lambert's been decent this season and has earned his move to Liverpool, but one injury to Walcott and we're down to Lambert or Carroll. FML.

 

England are about where they should be. Sure, there was definitely the potential to beat both Italy and Uruguay but overall their better players made the difference. Pirlo's stepover, Marchisio's goal, Balotelli's header. Suarez's two goals, Cavani's extraordinarily simple assist, Godin's brutal cunning. The only way to stop world class is to be world class, and England don't have world class.

 

Buuuuuuuuut... I think the Euros 2016 are going to be exciting for England. Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd seem to be keen on English players, there are definitely English kids ready to step up to these sides and get game time in the Champions League. You never know, maybe Bale's move will encourage more players to move abroad? Although sadly not Tom Ince.

 

I think England have done well enough. They could have qualified from an easier group I think, but they've hardly embarrassed themselves in this one.

 

Cheers!

[King 277]

How have they done well enough??

 

Zero points, and already out of the World Cup is not doing well enough Boyo.

 

Okay lets look at the positives,

 

Theo Walcott -, yes Theo, if he was fit he makes the starting X1, gives them extreme pace and will score goals.

 

Raheem Sterling - Doesn't look out of place even at this young age, pace to burn, will attack players and gave England something they have been missing for years.

 

Negativies..

 

Stephen Gerrard, I love them man but Roy should have played him the way Liverpool played him, his legs are gone now and he's just not up to International football anymore.

 

Wayne Rooney - Granted he was played out of position in his first game but I don't care, he's on £300K a week and this is the best he can do for his country??The press got to him and the days of him being "world class" are gone.

 

Danny Welbeck - How in gods name has this man got in the England squad, I'd say something if he had a good season (Henderson).. but what a waste of a seat on the plane he was.

 

Jordan Henderson - Really poor World Cup for me, especially since he had a fantastic season, hope it doesn't dent his confidence for next season :D

 

Phil Jagielka/Leighton Baines - Totally look out of their depth at this level, to be fair Terry and Cole never did!!

[Evil Gringo 279]

Believe it or not, at the moment, England have had more attacks then any other team in the World Cup. We are literally the most attacking team in the tournament.

 

Problem with that is our screening players are Steven Gerrard who looked done for over in the heat (it was like watching clips of Charlton in 1970 as he just wasted away) and Henderson - not a Owen Hargreaves of the past or even a spoiler like Batty, Ince or someone of their ilk. Too much silk and not enough steel.

 

There comes the next problem. There has been no end product from people. Sterling might have looked good dancing past old Italians but what did he do after that? Welbeck ran himself into the ground to press and provide an outlet but where was his quality in the final third?

 

Call Rooney all you want but he actually provided some end product when he set up the goal in the Italian game and scored in the Uruguay game. He also looked our fittest and most dangerous player in the Uruguay game as well. Granted he is 29 years old nearly and not the answer for the next World Cup but then most of this squad isn't either. It was the best of what could be scrapped together with a load of deluded hype behind them as soon as they landed in Rio as usual.

 

I looked at that group and decided to go into this tournament with no expectations. Italy and Uruguay are ranked higher in the world and are among the five times to beat us more times then we have beaten them. They have more players that are of a good to world class strata of talent. The English national team on the other hand is like it was in 2000 - in transit, loosing the old heads whilst waiting for the new crop to arrive which it did in 2002-06

 

Problem is, I don't see that new crop.

[Guest Boyo]

Zero points and going out of the World Cup after two games. Is it good? No. Is it good enough? Probably.

 

England weren't drawn with Iran, Honduras and Australia, they were drawn with Italy and Uruguay, two teams that are better than them, and Costa Rica who have turned out to be better than both of THEM.

 

England were never leading in any of those matches, they don't have the same quality of players as Italy or Uruguay, they aren't ranked as highly, they have less players playing in the Champions League, and have an extremely shallow pool of players to choose from.

 

If the World Cup was the Premier League, England would be Swansea. Decent in attack, leaky in defence, some quality players for sure, but players who could never play for the biggest sides in the world. Potential to qualify for the Europa, but no ones surprised if they don't.

 

I just fail to see what England have done that's not good enough. You yourself said they wouldn't get out of the group, because that's the level they're at, especially with who they've been drawn against.

 

My EU2016 qualifying side:

 

Hart

 

Flanagan -- Cahill -- Stones -- Shaw

 

Henderson -- Wilshire

 

Oxlade-Chamberlain

 

Walcott -- Sturridge -- Sterling

 

Cheers!

[King 277]

Yeah but my whole point is that people still think they did well, they didn't, simple as.

 

Also Boyo no Ross Barkley??

[Evil Gringo 279]

Don't be silly, there was an over hyped Arsenal player to pick ahead of him - although this season will see if Barkley is merely just as over hyped as well.

 

Btw, that player is Wilshere, not the Ox, he is actually a bloody good player if Arsenal could keep him fit.

 

You know what, for the qualifiers I'd still pick Rooney. He scored more goals in qualifying then anyone and more goals in competitive internationals (qualifiers and tournaments) then any other England player in history. The Euro's could be his last hurrah and lets not forget, he is only of only two players to record a goal and one of only two players to record an assist in this campaign despite the fact all these young players are supposed to be better and he's past his best. Fact is, the guy is still England's best player.

 

Another issue is that whilst England supposedly played with two wide players they didn't really. All of the front four have either played most of their career in a central role or spent most of the last season there so there was no real width. As a result Baines and Johnson both pushed on and England were punished in behind as they didn't have an out and out winger or at least someone prepared and tactically sound enough to spend enough time out there to keep the team honest. Look at Suarez, he kept on pulling wide into the spaces behind Johnson and Baines, Candreva and Martan two on one all the time on Baines, whilst the two centre backs were terrified to move out wide because that would leave room for Mario or Cavani depending on the foe.

 

Meanwhile the creative engine room was overcrowded and the little triangles didn't come off because the opposition did the same thing they have done to Spain the past year or two - pack the crap out of the middle and counter.

 

Switzerland had the same sort of system and idea against the French - full backs providing width, pack the midfield to retain the ball and support the lone striker. France counter raped them to death. Spain against Holland, same thing, full backs push too far up and Robben and Van Persie spin into the wide areas and murder Pique and Ramos.

 

England took years to catch up with the modern game and now they finally have (and qualification results suggest they did) the game is changing on them again and they don't have the equipment for the job.

[Guest Boyo]

Jack Wilshere's coming off nearly 18 months of the last two years injured, I can forgive him being a bit rusty. I don't think he's overhyped at all, in fact he's been written off too quickly.

 

And no, from what I've seen of him in an England shirt, Ross Barkley definitely does not start in my England side. Sure, he's on the bench, and sure, I bring him on and let him loose but he only gets 20 minutes at best, and that's when we're either 2-0 up and cruising or needing a goal. He's not yet good enough to play a full 90 against a top international side. He can't keep the ball.

 

Cheers!

[Evil Gringo 279]

His numbers don't justify this idea that he is a great midfielder though. He's never been a great goalscorer at any level but his assists levels are poor as hell. I just ask myself sometimes what does he do in that team?

 

Ramsey gives drive and chips in goals, Santi creates and scores the odd one or two himself, Ozil is an assist machine, Walcott provides pace and Ox pace AND industry, Flamini is the organiser and spoiler but Wilshere doesn't seem to do anything of those things but is lauded as the next great English central midfielder. Hence my thoughts on that he is overhyped.

 

Then again the pool and talent level of English central midfield players is so poor these days you can forgive the press for hyping the possible best of a mediocre to bad lot.

[Guest Boyo]

They were saying the same thing about Aaron Ramsey this time last year, who had (if my memory serves) 18 months of the previous 2 years out injured.

 

I personally think Wilshere struggles to start in the Arsenal line up right now, and definitely didn't warrant a place ahead of Gerrard or Henderson for England. But that's more to do with rustiness than talent.

 

He'll be fine next season, I'm sure.

 

EDIT: I think you're doing Walcott a disservice by the way. Walcott provides pace, sure, but Walcott provides goals more than anything.

 

I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong, but these past two years or so Walcott's games/goals/assists has been really good.

 

Cheers!

Edited June 21, 2014 by Boyo

[Evil Gringo 279]

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, his finishing has improved no end but his crossing isn't that great but he is a fantastic outlet when fit and firing on all cylinders, Walcott can be a quality player but like most Arsenal players he has spent most of his career at the club injured.

 

Plus I know Wilshere has spent most of the past two years injured likewise with Ramsey before but Ramsey showed at Cardiff and when Arsenal first signed him the attributes he is showing now, just less frequent and more rough. I have never seen why people are in love with Wilshere even when he first broke through and was fighting fit.

 

Back to England though - the point has been made about their long seasons, likewise with the Spanish clubs and their players and how this tired them out. Thing is though at the same time, most of the squad is Liverpool based, either for Everton (Baines and Phil) and Sterling, Sturridge, Johnson, Henderson and Gerrard from Liverpool, sides that all played about 25% less games then the likes of Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and City players in the squad. So why in the holy hell did they get so tired? I get it with the first game in Manus with the humidity but the conditions in the second game were much better.

[Guest Boyo]

There were two key points for me (and it doesn't just apply to England):

 

1. The players who played in the CL play approx 25% more games than anyone else.

 

2. The others weren't good enough to play in the CL.

 

You find that a lot of the big European nations, and the two big South American nations too, just look exhausted, as to get in those squads you invariably need to start every game for your club. With England, there was less exhaustion, but they just weren't good enough.

 

Notice that many of the teams who are doing well have many CL-quality players, but they are also more squad players. They don't start every week, they suffer from rotation more than others, they probably aren't quite as good as many of their team mates. But they're not looking exhausted as a result.

 

That's just my take anyway :)

 

Cheers!

[Guest Ciaran The King]

No progress at all, loads of press over picking young players but then never playing them....yeah really good .

 

Johnson, Jagielka, Baines, Henderson, Gerrard, Welbeck, Rooney don't belong in the England side anymore, they have constantly proven they don't belong on the international stage

[Omega 354]

Yeah but my whole point is that people still think they did well, they didn't, simple as.

 

Also Boyo no Ross Barkley??

 

Now you're making things up. We didn't do well, no one is saying we did well. What we're saying is that given the squad, the group, the location we PLAYED well enough. We didn't get the results but we played soooo much better than we have for such a long time. Again, compare this tournament to 4 years ago where Capello put out an unispired England team that bored there way to the knockout stages of an "easier" group with squeaked victories only to be utterly thrashed by Ze Germans and I'd take us going out and trying to play teams off the pitch because long term that's how we're going to become better.

 

There's a job being done here, a reshaping of the england squad from a team turning up to defend and pray we'll make the results stick to a team to a team that, given the time to develop, will be able to take it to the very best teams and win.

 

though I agree that I never want to see Jack Wilshire in an England shirt again. I;d also personally choose not to pick Glen Johnson again who tired ridiculously in both matches and left us vulnerable more times than he provided a real attacking outlet. I felt when Baines got the partner on his side of the pitch he was by far the better outlet and didn't run out of gas.

[Guest bigmatt]

No progress at all, loads of press over picking young players but then never playing them....yeah really good .

 

Johnson, Jagielka, Baines, Henderson, Gerrard, Welbeck, Rooney don't belong in the England side anymore, they have constantly proven they don't belong on the international stage

 

Who would you select instead?

[Omega 354]

CM Punk.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Who would you select instead?

 

Hart

Stones Caulker Cahill Shaw

 

Lallana Wilshere

 

Sterling Barkley Sturridge

 

Austin

Edited June 23, 2014 by Ciaran The King

[Omega 354]

Is that the old a 4-2-3 formation or did you not even follow your own layout and have Lambert/Austin up front?