What would the world be like today if Hitler had won the war?

[Guest Edgehead]

So today is the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings, a pivotal moment in the Allies victory over the Nazis & it got me thinking what would things be like in 2014 if the war had gone the other way?

 

I guess we'd all be speaking German, Jews would be extinct & no one would dare come out as gay. But in what other ways would the world be different? Sure Hitler would be dead by now but would his regime still be in place today. What do you guys think?

[Guest The Beltster]

Jews would be extinct & no one would dare come out as gay.

Damn, when you put it like that it doesnt sound that bad!

[Guest Edgehead]

:lol

[Guest Inno]

America would still claim they won it :)

[Maxximus 353]

The Nazis didn't all out lose though; they made deals just like everyone does. Research operation paperclip.

 

Had they won the war I don't know if things would be all that different than they are today. Germany would just have been the focal point of things just like America is today with it's super power status. The Nazis would have never claimed world domination, the Russians wouldn't have allowed that. The cold war may have been between Germany and Russia and America would have recovered just like Japan did. Who knows, the USA might even be a better place today had we gotten our asses kicked.

[Guest John Hancock]

You'd have a completely different global mod team, for one.

[Maxximus 353]

That's probably very true and something to consider. WWII was such a massive scale event that it's hard to imagine what the world would be like had the outcome been different.

 

Some of us may have never existed at all.

[Guest John Hancock]

I'd have never existed, Kam would probably be living somewhere else, Jimmy would be fine if she was in Australia, but born and then killed if she was in Europe, Paul would have been Prime Minister, arch-racist that he is, and wouldn't have time to go on forums.

[dsrchris 190]

I wouldn't exist, because there's no way my mom and dad would've met up and mixed some races.

[Maxximus 353]

Yeah, see, I'm mixed too and I've been wondering how far the ideology would have reached. If it had spread to the United States then I wouldn't have been born either.

 

What was Hitler's thoughts on beaners?

[Guest The Beltster]

He'd have left them alone. Everybody needs their grass cut and their deck built.

[Guest John Hancock]

Yeah, see, I'm mixed too and I've been wondering how far the ideology would have reached. If it had spread to the United States then I wouldn't have been born either.

 

What was Hitler's thoughts on beaners?

 

I don't think he made any public statements on them, but he was tight with the Italians and the Spanish, so he wasn't anti-Latin in any real way. Jews, Slavs and Gypsies were the only three groups he really singled out as, like "This shit has got to go".

 

Also, for the sake of the thread, it seems like we're all naturally assuming "won the war" means "ruled the world forever". Who's to say the Fourth Reich wouldn't have collapsed by the time we were all born anyway? It's hard to imagine it would could have survived Hitler, who would have died naturally in the late 60s at the absolute latest.

[Omega 354]

It also depends on when you say they "won" it. What if they'd got up to France and everyone said "Ok matey, stop now and it's all good. **** the polish and beligans but ets just calm our tits" and it was more that Germany came to be the top european country but in general a full on world war was totally avoided.

[Guest John Hancock]

Hitler, apparently, only wanted eastern Europe anyway, he only fought against western Europe and America because they wouldn't let him f*ck about anymore. "Hitler winning" could just mean Nazi Russia really.

[etz 78]

Doesn't really sound all that different to Russia now, in some respects.

[Guest Boyo]

I've got to say that I don't think the world today (generally speaking) would be all that different than it is now if Germany had won WW2. And, like Omega said, it would depend on when they decided to stop, or when they had decided they had won.

 

I think Israel, or something resembling Israel would exist somewhere, and a lot of Jews would have moved there after being unsettled during WW2. "Unsettled" is of course not a strong enough word for what I mean.

 

Once Hitler won, I think he would have kept the European nations largely as they are today but would have set up a centralised European Parliament to govern everyone. Perhaps he would have made the Deutchmark the single currency for Europe.

 

The Channel Islands, Monaco, Canaries, other island groups might have become tax havens for rich politicians.

 

I think national languages would have survived as they are today. I think America speaking English would probably keep English as a very dominant/popular language.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the 10 years or so immediately after WW2 could have been very unpleasant, but I think it would have panned out to something pretty much resembling today.

 

Cheers!

[Guest John Hancock]

I'm not sure where you get those assumptions from.

 

Before complete war broke out, every country Germany conquered was incorporated into Germany and ceased to exist, and the invasion of eastern Europe was orchestrated to wipe out, enslave or deport the entire native population, to be repopulated by Germans, and become part of Germany. He also openly and publicly said that Europe's weakness was that it wasn't vast and united like America, and that Europe would be a superpower again if it was one country. No one has ever seriously suggested that Hitler had any intention of creating some sort of European federation. From day one, it was going to be an empire, the clue's in the name, "Third Reich", the "Third Empire".

 

Also, the idea of Jewish deportation, by which I assume you're talking about the Madagascar Plan is, in it's current form, almost entirely an urban myth. The plan was to turn Madagascar into a giant prison camp, still very much under Germany control, housing the world's Jewish population as a slave state. It was not going to be an independent Jewish country. And, even that idea didn't last long. The idea that all the Jews had to go was pretty much finalised by the end of 1940. The plan was that Jews would be used as slave labour until the war was over, and then, the second fighting ended, they'd all be killed. However, once the German's lost the battle of Moscow, they panicked, and starting killing off their Jewish labourers early. Either way, "something resembling Israel" was never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Ever.

[Guest Boyo]

Like I said, the first 10 years or so post WW2 could have been very uncomfortable, especially if Hitler did impose the Third Reich.

 

But, 60 years later, it would probably be like it is today, in my opinion. "States" like "France" and "Spain", "Italy" and "England" would always have stubbornly continued to speak their own language, before declaring themselves independent from Germany. And Germany would have allowed it, on the basis that they could still govern economically from a central post in Berlin.

 

I have never heard of this "Madagascar Plan" you speak of, so don't presume to know what I'm talking about. All I'm saying is that despite their best efforts, the Nazis wouldn't have been able to kill all the Jewish people. They would probably have fled to the US where, faced with a huge surge of Jewish immigration, the very pro Israeli American Govt - I'm sure - would have created "an Israel" for the Jewish people somewhere. It's what the Americans did when the Germans lost WW2; I'm sure they would have done the same if the Germans won WW2.

 

Cheers!

[Guest John Hancock]

Why would they have conquered Spain and Italy seeing that they were on the same side? And you can't get away with just saying "and Germany would have allowed it" when all evidence in existence suggests otherwise.

 

I assumed you were refuting to the Madagascar Plan because then the idea of European Jewish self-determination under the Nazis would be at least based in anything at all. "They wouldn't have been able to kill all of them"? In under four years they killed, on average, 70% of the Jewish population of every country they occupied, and that's including Russia and Ukraine, which were never fully conquered. In places like Czechoslavakia, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and Latvia, it was over 80%. In four years. And I'm not talking about immigration, I'm talking about death. Via death alone, the Jewish population of Europe more than halved. In. Four. Years.

 

And how would they have fled to the US? Other than the simple question of how would they get there, what with there being a war going on, there's also the issue of the Immigration Act of 1924 (or '25, I can't remember) which was responsible for thousands of Jewish deaths because America had a strict policy of denying asylum to Jewish refugees. Jewish immigration into the United States from Nazi Germany or German-occupied Europe was about 100,000 people, tops. Jewish immigration out of Europe virtually ended the second the war started because it was practically impossible. Travelling, as a Jew, was illegal, and shipping routes were being heavily monitored by everyone. You'd have to have false papers, hiding places taking you all the way into a port town, the ability to get on a boat, the ability to sneak that boat out of port, the ability to sail that to a country that is at war with that boat's country of origin, the ability to dock a boat into a country that boat is at war with, and then the ability to live as an illegal immigrant with such numbers that the government that won't even recognise your right to asylum would give you a country. It's a fool-proof plan.

 

And even after all that, it's pretty silly to classify the US government as "pro-Israeli" in an alternate history where Israel doesn't exist. In a world where Germany won the Second World War, Germany would almost certain occupy Israel, seeing as the conquest of the British-occupied Middle East was a key aspect in their strategy because of the oil reserves. Israel was a British creation, not an American one. In theory, it was supporting by America, but the Belfour Declaration was supported by lots of countries, and wasn't an American led program in any way. All the way into the late 40's, the American government was worried about the instability Israeli independence would cause, and wouldn't overtly support it. It was only in 1948, with President Truman, that America really became the Israeli ally.

 

But, even then, Israeli independence was a creation of European Jews, not American ones. You say American Jews would have created a Jewish state eventually, but, again, there's absolutely nothing in reality to suggest that. Whilst American Jews have always been financially and politically supportive of Israel, physically involvement has been minimal. At the moment, just under 3% of Jewish Israeli families came to Israel via North America. Not just the USA, the entire continent, and it's 3%. The vast majority are from North Africa, which, as parts of French Empire at the time, would be Nazi occupied land, and Eastern Europe, again, Nazi occupied land. The Nazi's win the Second World War, and 90% of the Jewish population of Israel doesn't exist, and, if the surviving 10% go somewhere, they would never win independence with such a small population. That's another thing you're forgetting, that, in practise, Israel was created out of war, a very one-sided war, where Israel's victory was very unlikely, and very unexpected. If you take 90% of the Jewish side out of any war of independence, whether it's in Israel or some other random place (which would never happen anyway, seeing that Israel was created for a very specific reason, and all other Jewish autonomous regions have failed) the Jews don't win.

 

So, in short;

 

- European Jews don't magically survive the Holocaust

- European Jews don't magically fly to America

- American Jews don't magically found an entire country by themselves

[Guest Boyo]

So, if Hitler wins WW2, do people in France, Spain, Italy, England (etc...), 60-odd years later, speak their own language or do they speak German?

 

60-odd years after Nazi Germany conquers Europe and Hitler and his main guys all die, is modern Europe still ruled with that same brutal military force or does it become more bureaucratic?

 

Do you think it's possible, if the Third Reich had conquered an awful lot of Europe, that they would have insisted their currency (or a currency) become the single/dominant currency?

 

If Hitler had won WW2, do you think the likes of Lotus, Caterham or Jaguar would have gone on to dominate the automotive market, or do you think Audi, Mercedes, VW and BMW would have moved their factories into Eastern Europe and dominated?

 

If the Nazis had won WW2, does that mean stuff like Computers, the internet, emails, broadband, mobile phones, sat nav and mp3 would or could not have been invented?

 

Do you think the likes of Rock n Roll, Heavy Metal, Punk, New Wave, Grunge, EDM, etc... would or could not be possible? Do you think that after 60 years that gay and disabled people wouldn't have found their voices?

 

Would we be holding World Cups and Olympic Games every four years? Would the US still have NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB, MLS... etc? Would or could there be music festivals, package holidays, PPI, jobs in customer service, supermarkets in every town, widescreen HD tellys? Would we watch pro wrestling?

 

I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm saying that if Hitler did win WW2, I at least don't think life would be all that different from what it is today.

 

Cheers!

[Guest Boyo]

The Nazis didn't all out lose though; they made deals just like everyone does. Research operation paperclip.

I did just that and, crumbs, I'd never heard of that either! I'm going to have a good ol' read about that now :).

 

EDIT: Just discovered a website called "Conspiracy Archive". I think I'm going to be here all night :xyx.

 

Cheers!

Edited June 7, 2014 by Boyo

[Maxximus 353]

Another thing to consider is if the Nazis won, but won by atom bomb, primarily by nuking the shit out of the US. Then there would really be no where to go and who knows what the survivors would be speaking. Some kind of weird Mad Max type accent I would hope.

[Guest Boyo]

Must admit I've always just kinda assumed the Nazis, should they have taken Europe, probably wouldn't have gone any further. I also don't think they could have taken the US, but that's just me. Unless, yeah, unless they nuked it. Yeesh.

 

Cheers!

[Omega 354]

In my head what I see as the only way Nazi-Germany wins anything is if it takes the countries directly bordering it (except France) and the other major powers in Eurpoe come to a settlement over it.

 

so I see Germany now incorporating: the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemborg, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria-Hungary and potentially Switzerland and East Prussia. I'm carefully avoiding Denmark at the moment on the basis that the Germans would probably avoid it if it meant appeasing the Scandinavian block plus they'd have picked up the dutch and Belgian coast. So we'd have a europe that looked something like this:

 

http://i57.tinypic.com/jr5pn8.png

 

So lets have that as the acceptable expansion in 1939. The only unhappy people are the Russians and the conquered countries but the world breathes a sigh of relief that war has been avoided. Lets say the general empire building slows down of it;s own accord since now the resources of the european nations aren;t blunted in a second world war.

 

I can see generally either through alliances or further expansion Germany having influence as follows:

 

http://i62.tinypic.com/fedq89.png

 

and as long as France and Britain continue to hold onto the African colonies without their being any tensions what we end up with a new central block in europe. again lets say that this new Germanic empire settles into a governable state either through giving the conquered countries a semblance of self-government under the protection of the central Germanic government. Russia now has one "unified" state between the rest of europe and itself. I can see there being a new "wall" either physical or simply symbolic between the USSR and Germany. However the potential rise of Russia as a superpower is also going to be stiffled somewhat with the lack of post war expansion plus now the old european powers such as France, Britain etc are going to be more hospitable to Germany providing the bigger buffer.

 

I can see that this could lend itself to an era where there is greater trust and greater co-operation between the european nations, again this new European block with it's massive reach across the world and again not blunted by a devastating war could be stopping the influence of the U.S on world politics. Could the "New Europe" build up Africa's infrastructure instead of simply abandoning them? Would they be able to stretch across two continents swallowing their resources? Instead of a euope of today where the countries bicker over tax levies and european trade agreements could it simply be a united confederation of nations willing to back each other up against the last two blocks of power in the U.S and Russia? Would we avoid a Cold War and so the U.S and Russia end up as bed fellows against what would be the biggest power in the world?

 

Could the whole extermination of the jews and gypsies actually end up also being not as bad as it was in the war? Does the allowance of expansion mean that the platform of the Nazi's changes from radically facist into a general nationalist party concerned more with maintaining the German Empire rather than having to blame the Jews for everything? Who knows I guess.... Would more exiles have been able to get to Britain and France? Maybe we end up with Einstein and Oppenheimer instead of the yanks and Britain develops the A-Bomb first? Could happen...

 

Anyway, that's what I could see happening. We'd all be speaking English still but all have second homes in Africa or something. We probably all have stuff that says Made in Germany instead of China. the world drinks a lot more larger and eats more smoked sausage than before perhaps. Less bagels maybe.

[Guest John Hancock]

Well, you also have to consider the amount of governments the Nazis replaced. If they won a favourable peace treaty, why would they, for example, re-democratise France? Surely the Vichy government would just have remained in power, and France would be a German satellite state, just like Poland was to the Soviet Union.

 

Also, if you're saying the Nazis won, I think you also have to give them the things that they needed to win, which is oil fields. They lost, ultimately, because they never secured Russian or Arab oil. I think the easiest way to imagine Germany winning the war is to imagine a situation in which the Battle of Stalingrad ends quickly, Rommel throws the British out of the Middle East, and D-Day fails. The Soviet Union would collapse, America would back out of the European conflict, possibly remaining at war with Japan, and Britain would be forced into signing a peace treaty that basically abandoned continental Europe to fascism. That's really the most logical scenario, and it would carry huge ramifications with it.

 

For example, they wanted the Russian oil fields, "living space" in western Russian and to over throw the Soviet government, so you'd have to add south-west Russia to Germany and north-west Russia, most likely as a series of decentralised regional states, as a pro-Nazi ally. Another oil region was the Middle East, and the plan there was to throw the English out and give it back to the Arabs, would function as an ally. Finland, Spain and Morocco were also independent Nazi countries, and the government of Norway, Iceland and Greece had been replaced with pro-Nazi local governments.

 

So, basically, that entire map, other than Britain, Ireland, Turkey, Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal would have either been part of Germany, a German puppet-state, or an independent, but still Nazi, country.

Edited June 7, 2014 by John Hancock