Do We Need Kayfabe In Wrestling?

[dsrchris 190]

Over in the Ask TWO Thread, Ciaran asked...well, look for yourself:

 

Was the breaking of Kayfabe best for business?

 

So what do you think? Does wrestling need kayfabe? Has this modern age of information at our fingertips killed the mystique and allure of professional wrestling now we know how everything is done?

 

Or is there an opportunity here for wrestling to use the inquisitive nature of the fans to their advantage?

 

What do you think?

[Omega 354]

Wrestling isn't real so it will always have some kind of kayfabe. People act like just because people don't live their gimmicks anymore that Kayfabe is dead, kayfabe is alive and well until WWE becomes MMA.

[etz 78]

Even MMA is adopting some aspects of kayfabe, with certain personalities heeling it up outside the octagon etc.

[Maxximus 353]

The 'breaking of kayfabe' WAS kayfabe. Enter kayfabe 2.0 for the internet age.

[dsrchris 190]

The 'breaking of kayfabe' WAS kayfabe. Enter kayfabe 2.0 for the internet age.

 

I was hoping you'd chime in with your "Kayfabe 2.0".

 

I was also hoping you'd elaborate a little more for the new folks. :lol

[Maxximus 353]

Okay sure, I can do that.

 

What kayfabe 2.0 is for example, the "fight and break up of Fandango and Summers Eve on twitter." It's basically trying to take an existing or future angle and use it as an internet news story. The Summer of Punk '11 is a great example of that too, like where Punk took pictures of the belt in his refrigerator. In fact it was Punk's first pipebomb that led me to coin the term that I should be getting paid for whenever it's used.

 

It's just expanding kayfabe by creating internet buzz over something that seems 'outside of kayfabe' when it's actually still kayfabe.

 

It might sound confusing but a seasoned conspiracy theorist would get it immediate. It's just cointelpro for pro wrestling. The old bait and switch improved for the internet age.

 

In fact, I don't know if I've ever admitted this here, but it was pro wrestling and specifically the Montreal Screwjob that turned me into a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist. Well, it was that and the old Time Life: Mysteries of the Unknown books.

[etz 78]

I don't do tinfoil hats, they're a conspiracy to sell you more tinfoil!

[Maxximus 353]

Damn Jews and their tin foil plot of world domination.

[Guest John Hancock]

Even MMA is adopting some aspects of kayfabe, with certain personalities heeling it up outside the octagon etc.

 

I suppose that depends on what you call kayfabe. I mean, other than Chael Sonnen, I've never seen an MMA fighter perpetrating an entirely false storyline for the purposes of publicity. For example, I can't think of a time I've seen two opponents pretending to dislike each other, or scripting a conflict between each other, and that's what I'd call kayfabe, I'd define it as a relationship between two competitors that doesn't really exist, or a persona that someone doesn't live when the cameras are turned off. I think there's a difference between that and just the plainer heightened reality of what lots of MMA fighters do. Just as another example, I think there's a lot more difference between The Undertaker and Mark Calloway than, say, Rampage and Quinton Jackson. I think kayfabe, by definition, has to have a aspect of dishonesty to it, otherwise it's just showmanship.

 

Side note, for those who don't follow MMA: Chael Sonnen once claimed that he was champion, despite losing a title fight, insisting that he was unaware of the rules, and hadn't really lost, and he started carrying a replica title belt around with him, and referring to himself as the undefeated, undisputed champion, despite neither being champion, or undefeated. I'd hold that one little angle, which I think lasted about a year, up as the one instance of true kayfabe in MMA, but, even then, Sonnen did that entirely by himself, without the UFC's involvement or encouragement, and no one played along with him.

[Guest fattyfudge]

Is there an example of where kayfabe was broken recently, or is this just a general question?

 

Either way in my opinion, we still need kayfabe to promote the mystique of certain characters... Bray Wyatt wouldn't have the same effect if we saw him having a coffee and cake in Starbucks

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I don't think you need Kayfabe as long as you have a believable storyline and believable characters

[dsrchris 190]

But part of having believable characters is the character living the gimmick in the public eye.

 

Or to give it it's proper name...kayfabe. You can't have suspension of disbelief without kayfabe, so you can't have believable characters and situations in an unrealistic performance art without it either.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

So what about TV and film characters?

 

In the Sopranos you could totally believe James Gandolfini was Tony Soprano but yet any sane person can differentiate between the actor and the character

 

If you have a compelling TV show, film or episode of Raw with believable characters it works no matter what.....Kayfabe is an old idea from a era long gone.

[Guest Will O the Wisp]

You realize kayfabe (or some iteration of) exist in the Sopranos, right?

[dsrchris 190]

So what about TV and film characters?

 

But TV and film let's you know exactly what it is, it's scripted entertainment acted out by actors.

 

In the Sopranos you could totally believe James Gandolfini was Tony Soprano but yet any sane person can differentiate between the actor and the character

 

Because James Gandolfini was an actor acting a part. He acted in several other shows too, and was pretty famous for his work. He was openly acknowledged by his industry as an actor portraying several different roles over a course of many years.

 

Wrestling doesn't want you to know that it's scripted. Wrestling doesn't acknowledge wrestlers as actors, really. While you get wrestlers taking on characters, you never get it openly acknowledged by WWE on television. They don't talk about Nick Nemeth portraying characters, because in their world Nicky from the Spirit Squad and Dolph Ziggler are two entirely separate people.

 

The whole idea of wrestling is to make you not be able to distinguish between the person and the character they play. They ARE their character, which is where Kayfabe comes in.

 

In fact, the only reason so many people probably know things like which character certain wrestlers used to work as is because of the internet. While there were fans before who were smart to all things wrestling, having the info at your fingertips in a second blew the lid off the entire thing completely. Now any old fool with 5 minutes on google can profess to being a "smart mark". What wrestling needs to do is find a way to play the smart marks for just plain marks again.

 

Like Maxx mentioned, some people get it. CM Punk putting the belt in his fridge, Fandango and Summer Rae falling out on Twitter, Big E's Instagram videos, it's a medium thats ripe for the using and WWE don't quite seem to know how to pull it off.

 

If you have a compelling TV show, film or episode of Raw with believable characters it works no matter what.....Kayfabe is an old idea from a era long gone.

 

Dude, saying Kayfabe is an outdated concept is the same as saying The Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas, and all those other tall tales we tell kids are outdated concepts too. In my opinion, if wrestling loses Kayfabe completely, it loses all it's fun too.

[Omega 354]

So what about TV and film characters?

 

In the Sopranos you could totally believe James Gandolfini was Tony Soprano but yet any sane person can differentiate between the actor and the character

 

If you have a compelling TV show, film or episode of Raw with believable characters it works no matter what.....Kayfabe is an old idea from a era long gone.

 

Ciaran, you don't understand what kayfabe actually is then. You really don't.

 

If Tony Soprano in the middle of the episode of the Sopranos turned and looked directly in the camera and said "Of course, I'm James Gandolfini not a real mob boss. Buy a subway" then that's breaking kayfabe in terms of a TV show. No one in a TV show references who they really are during the broadcast (bar specific shows noted for breaking the fourth wall).

 

Kayfabe means sticking to a gimmick when required, it doesn't necessarily refer to people living the gimmick outside of TV, it means that the people only the shows don't break character. It means Bray Wyatt will never mention that he was Husky Harris. It's the fact that Triple H and Steph "bury" Daniel Bryan on RAW but are happily paying him large sums of money to be on the show but never mention these things. Hell kayfabe can still be used to cover things like Mick Foley saying that he was Dude Love or Cactus Jack because the reality is Mick Foley is a fat dude in tights who throws himself from stuff not "Mick Foley" wrestling champions or whatever.

 

Kayfabe exists, saying it doesn't is retarded. If Kayfabe doesn't exist then all films and TV shows would be documentaries detailing the real lives of people. It's people pretending to be things they aren't despite the fact they eat in starbucks or are papped by people hanging out together.

 

If no Kayfabe then everything is a shoot, everything you think is not kayfabe these days is a worked-shoot to one degree or another.

[Guest pheadley]

ofcourse we need kayfabe i dont want to see brat wyatt walking past i.r.s. saying hey dad whats for sunday dinner. and i seen a picture of wyatt just today on facebook with him, his wife and child. yet it wont effect the way i will view his character. Edited May 22, 2014 by pheadley

[Guest John Hancock]

Surely, if you got rid of kayfabe, the moves wouldn't even work. It would be one guy pretending to punch the other guy, and the other guy just standing still.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Wrestling doesn't want you to know that it's scripted. Wrestling doesn't acknowledge wrestlers as actors, really. While you get wrestlers taking on characters, you never get it openly acknowledged by WWE on television. They don't talk about Nick Nemeth portraying characters, because in their world Nicky from the Spirit Squad and Dolph Ziggler are two entirely separate people.

 

I understand the wrestling companies want to keep up some sort of illusion but can you really take that illusion seriously in 2014?....especially if you are under the age of say 12. Watching wrestling is without a doubt entertainment, watching wrestling is like going to the theatre, cinema or watching TV at home. Wrestling like every form of entertainment is escapism from normal life, for 2/3 hours you can sit back and enjoy OTT entertainment. Okay so of course there is a form of kayfabe still floating around so you can I suppose enjoy the show for what it is but the days of true kayfabe are gone.

 

So Nick Nemeth played Nicky from the spirit squad....who cares?

Albert went to Japan an returned as Tensei so just admit it on TV because everyone knows it.

 

Wrestlers are actors end of, they portray characters weekly for our entertainment and we all accept it because we love wrestling.

[ViciousPrism 177]

These days WWE has it's own continuity. It's like how Eastenders doesn't refer to shit going on in Hollyoaks, and vice versa. If it doesn't happen in WWE, it doesn't matter. Nobody thought when Gemma Bissix left Hollyoaks and joined Eastenders "OMG! IT'S CLAIRE FROM HOLLYOAKS! WILL THEY REFER TO HER HOLLYOAKS PAST!?".

 

Also, just like Doctor Who when Freema Agyeman played the temp who worked at Torchwood and then became Martha Jones, or when Karen Gillan played the soothsayer in the Pompeii episode and then became Amy Pond.

[Shaun2J 127]

Why admit it though if everybody knows? No one's feeling cheated on just because he used to be called Albert. Fans won't feel a satisfaction in the WWE confessing who Tensai was. If anything they'll waste their time and keep on chanting.

[DC 536]

I understand the wrestling companies want to keep up some sort of illusion but can you really take that illusion seriously in 2014?

ALL of it is an illusion, even the "reality era" stuff.

[Omega 354]

I understand the wrestling companies want to keep up some sort of illusion but can you really take that illusion seriously in 2014?....especially if you are under the age of say 12. Watching wrestling is without a doubt entertainment, watching wrestling is like going to the theatre, cinema or watching TV at home. Wrestling like every form of entertainment is escapism from normal life, for 2/3 hours you can sit back and enjoy OTT entertainment. Okay so of course there is a form of kayfabe still floating around so you can I suppose enjoy the show for what it is but the days of true kayfabe are gone.

 

So Nick Nemeth played Nicky from the spirit squad....who cares?

Albert went to Japan an returned as Tensei so just admit it on TV because everyone knows it.

 

Wrestlers are actors end of, they portray characters weekly for our entertainment and we all accept it because we love wrestling.

 

Once again, you fail to understand what Kayfabe really means and so you drivel on about "true" kayfabe being dead despite everyone desperately pointing out to you what it really means, how it's totally alive and well and in fact evolving to include such aspects as social media. Yes, people don't live the gimmicks anymore.... because there is no point. When all you had to do was pretend to be a character in whatever local bar you happened into that night it was worth it but since the internet makes every move a company does public knowledge and fans post thousands of pictures of wrestlers in every aspect of their non-ring lives it serves no purpose.

 

And to top it all off you end your post saying we all "believe" in the illusion of wrestling because we're fans like that was what you were saying all along! You've actually convinced yourself that you've been right al along and we're just agreeing with you!

 

[video=youtube;b9JDPm_QHk4]

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Please then enlighten to me what kayfabe truly means

[Guest John Hancock]

Please then enlighten to me what kayfabe truly means

 

In professional wrestling, kayfabe is the portrayal of staged events within the industry as "real" or "true," specifically the portrayal of competition, rivalries, and relationships between participants as being genuine and not of a staged or pre-determined nature.

 

When one guy does his finishing move, and the other guy pretends to be unconscious? Kayfabe

When they submit to moves that don't really hurt? Kayfabe.

When they read scripted, rehearsed lines, and pretend they made them up? Kayfabe.

When two real life friends pretend to dislike each other? Kayfabe.

When Bray Whyatt pretends he's Charles Manson? Kayfabe.

When Daniel Bryan pretends his name is Daniel Bryan? Kayfabe.

When the commentators pretend they're surprised during run ins? Kayfabe.

When the production team make fire come out of the stage and pretend Kane did it with magic? Kayfabe.

When the wrestlers whisper instructions to each other so they both know what move is coming next? Kayfabe.

When referees pretend not to see things? Kayfabe.

 

I could literally do this for the rest of my life.