WWE RAW Discussion Thread - October 28, 2013 from Orlando, FL (#1066)

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Really enjoyed Raw this week.

 

I even enjoyed Cena/Sandow, really good back and forth match which I really think elevated Sandow. Would like to see Sandow added to the mix concerning the world title.

 

Michaels/Bryan was a great bit of TV, how I miss the smug HBK. Really good promo from HBK and really believable. Not sure how they can prolong this without Shawn gaining revenge in the ring.

 

The Wyatt's beat down of both Bryan and Punk were well done. WWE at least seem to be getting behind them now. The beat down of Punk was really good, loved how Bray said he'd been waiting for it. My only concern is that I don't wanna see workers like Punk and Bryan paired with wasters like Miz and Kofi.

 

The Shield once again stood tall and set the standard. Another first class performance from them and I must give plaudits to the ever improving Uso's and Big E. Great stuff.

 

Orton's celebration ended Raw brilliantly, Steph and HHH were as good as ever, loved the hugging. Big Show was again a revelation in his current role. The last few moments were amazing and the atmosphere when HHH took his jacket off was at fever pitch. Cannot wait to see this evolve once more

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Am I terrible for thinking they should have done the 'fail to cash in' angle with Dolph first?

 

Anyway, I liked Cena/Sandow as a match, the arm was really well sold and Sandow looked really good in receiving some bookerape. Dug the random Cena Big Boot too.

 

Really liked the Shawn promo, him trying to act like a face and getting nowhere and ending up losing it and cutting a promo like a douche was awesome. Right thing to do with Bryan too, just straight up revenge.

 

The sad thing is that I feel we've reached the watershed moment with the angle where the exciting, unchartered territory, 'what will this do for Bryan?' period has come to a close, and we begin revising expectations as the ship rights itself back into the status quo. As in, no, they're not building him into the #1 babyface. No new boom period. But at least he's in a better position than before. Kind of like Punk in 2011 at the point of Nash/returning to TV/whatever.

 

I still love the angle, but the edge has come off Bryan now that his rise has been halted after so many months of upward mobility, which in turn takes the edge off the angle because there's no longer a clear end game that you're rooting for. Well, you can still root for it, but it most probably won't happen the way you want anymore.

 

Oh well. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

I feel like AJ and Tamina should be in a lesbian relationship. Anything else is a compete waste of Tamina's eye-f*cking talent, which at this point is her only significant attribute.

 

Shield match was good. So was the Goldust match. News at 11.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Bryan has to be used properly now or he will just fall back into the mix

[Chris2K 176]

Sorry to be negative because I really don't like doing it, but at the end of this show I just felt depressed. The strong indication I got from the events of both Hell in a Cell and this RAW was that they don't believe anyone other than John Cena and Randy Orton can be the top names the company and need HHH, Stephanie and Big Show to back them up.

 

Damien Sandow has been permanently tarnished. I know he had a long, back-and-forth match with John Cena, but before that match started he spent TEN MINUTES destroying Cena's ALREADY INJURED ARM, immediately cashed in his guaranteed title victory and LOST CLEAN. Cena may have been the first to lose the MITB cash-in but not only did he give Punk notice he also WON THE MATCH BY DISQUALIFICATION, he just didn't get the title. Sandow will always carry around the burdon of being the guy who failed a surprise cash-in regardless of how well he did in the match itself, although let's not forget that the brutally injured, one-armed Cena kicked out of his finisher and fought through a well-proven arm-based submission hold.

 

I love the Wyatt Family but it seems they're becoming the new corporate stooges (I can't think that "The Devil Made Me Do It" can be anyone but HHH or Stephanie), now Daniel Bryan's main event run is over for at least the time being as they wouldn't have him take out HBK if he wasn't going back to the title picture soon, but the end of the show was the perfect example of what's happened. Big Show is more over than Bryan now without a shadow of a doubt, and it's no surprise because he's been booked as the anti-authority monster who interferes in the boss' plans. Bryan loses all the time. Show takes out the Shield by himself. Bryan gets beaten up backstage and nobody helps him. Big Show's filing a lawsuit which is trying to get the entire WWE bankrupted and shut down and apparently this makes him a GOOD GUY.

 

Hey look, Kane's a heel now. No reason given, he just is. Remember when he was put out of action by Mark Henry and then he came back and attacked John Cena? Remember when he was put out of action by the Wyatt Family and then came back and attacked The Miz? How can this happen TWICE IN TWO YEARS.

 

I'm done now.

[dsrchris 190]

Bryan's gonna be lying low ahead of coming out of nowhere to win the Rumble. I'm still calling it.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I actually think it was good for Sandow in a way, yeah he lost but he looked good in defeat I think. As I've already said I think he should be added to the ADR/Cena feud as it will add something different and make the rematch more interesting.

 

Also liked the revolution of the Kane character, for some reason just when you think Kane can't change his act they give him that Edge his needs to be relevant again. It's a good avenue for his character to go down and you just know he's gonna come into conflict with Show, Bryan, Punk within the next few months.

[Guest Will O the Wisp]

Damien Sandow has been permanently tarnished. I know he had a long, back-and-forth match with John Cena, but before that match started he spent TEN MINUTES destroying Cena's ALREADY INJURED ARM, immediately cashed in his guaranteed title victory and LOST CLEAN. Cena may have been the first to lose the MITB cash-in but not only did he give Punk notice he also WON THE MATCH BY DISQUALIFICATION, he just didn't get the title. Sandow will always carry around the burdon of being the guy who failed a surprise cash-in regardless of how well he did in the match itself, although let's not forget that the brutally injured, one-armed Cena kicked out of his finisher and fought through a well-proven arm-based submission hold.

 

So much, this. I don't see how anyone can say Sandow came out of this match looking strong. Don't forget the spot where John Cena chased Sandow out of the ring because, according to Cole, he didn't want to win by disqualification. The man who had his recovering arm beaten for 10 min and worked for an entire match was still better than Sandow. So much better in fact that he was able to choose the terms of his victory.

 

I realize that Cena is the babyface of the WWE, but that one spot really did the entire match in for me. That was the time I was unable to suspend disbelief, and that was the time that I knew what the outcome was going to be. I have never really joined the "Cena buries everyone!" montra. While I realize the match planning is not necessarily all on Cena, I left the match feeling like Sandow was buried.

 

Just because a wrestler is in a non-squash with Cena does not mean they look strong.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Maybe they should have allowed Sandow to win, let him have the title for a few weeks/month and then get Cena to beat him at Survivor Series or TLC??

[Guest Edgehead]

Bryan's gonna be lying low ahead of coming out of nowhere to win the Rumble. I'm still calling it.

 

Agreed. I think Cena's gonna unify the belts before WM & we're gonna get Cena/Bryan II

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I really hope not

[Guest Edgehead]

I don't think the failed surprise cash in was a bad thing either. It had to happen sooner or later, Sandow may be the first but he won't be the last & I don't think it will damage Sandow in the long run

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I can see Sandow coming out of it well, and even though he lost the match felt fresh and one that I would want to see again

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

I realize that Cena is the babyface of the WWE, but that one spot really did the entire match in for me. That was the time I was unable to suspend disbelief, and that was the time that I knew what the outcome was going to be. I have never really joined the "Cena buries everyone!" montra. While I realize the match planning is not necessarily all on Cena, I left the match feeling like Sandow was buried.

 

That isn't a superman spot as much as it is a superface spot. A heel would have let the referee count him out. A babyface generally always wants to eschew countouts and DQs and win properly in the middle of the ring. And this guy is the superface to end all superfaces. Cena accepting the count out would have gone against everything already-established about his character.

 

I thought kicking out of his new finish was a lot more offensive, but I also don't think Sandow should have changed his finish to that anyway, so whatever.

 

On another note, the fact that I spent the whole match wondering "Was that his finish? Or is that his finish? Maybe he got a new finish?" is not good. State of the business I guess, nobody gets showcase matches so nobody gets to establish their moves and their finish. Not to mention getting a new finisher like every 18 months. Same as new entrance music every 18 months (or in Barrett's case, every few days). There's no identity being established.

 

Think about it. If you went through the roster list, getting to the mid and lower card guys, and the girls, how many finishers would you be able to identify? I would sure as shit miss some.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Except for the top stars a lot of the mid/lower card guys use a multitude of finishers these days.

 

The fact that Cena kicked out of Sandow's finisher is irrelevant because not many knew it was his finisher.

[Omega 354]

I think the thing is with the Bryan angle is the it was totally inevitable that the focus has to shift away from him but to be fair it works with the fact that like DSR I'm sure Bryan will win the rumble to set up his Mania match. I think it works on both the standard level where the face is denied his title and it also works the internet fans a little by them seeming to be "turned off" Bryan. All good in my book.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

The problem with talking about a Rumble end game for Bryan is the inability for WWE to commit to upward movement anymore. That kind of thing sounds good, but it doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

Think about it. Bryan wins the Rumble and goes on to be in a/the title match at Mania. If that happens he almost certainly wins the belt. But, so what? He's 100% NOT going to be in the main event. He most likely won't be in the second biggest match. Depending on where the chips fall he may not even be in the third biggest. He'll be on the undercard. Bryan is NEVER sniffing the top of the Mania card while there is a crew of Rock, Brock, Cena, Taker, Hunter above him in the pecking order. The actual stars. And nowadays Mania is about only putting actual stars on top so that they can sell out stadiums and get 1M+ buys on PPV and break all-time profit records. There's no room in that structure for a new guy on the cusp of big stardom, but who can't be trusted yet, to be put over.

 

So my thing is, even if Bryan does win the Rumble and win a world title at Mania...just how big is that going to be really? Unless he wins it off a big star (and the only one who would be likely is Cena, and he's already done that), he's going to be in a midcard world title match beating someone of no real star-making value. What does that do for him? Maybe solidifies him as the new Punk. But with this kind of potential they really should be aiming higher. And as a fan watching the show I need more than that from them.

 

If there was a vaguely logical way to get the belt on Hunter between now and then, I'd say go for it. That sounds retarded, but at least Bryan winning the belt off Hunter at Mania is a satisfying conclusion to all of this. Otherwise, beating Hunter without a belt involved would still be much better, and much bigger, than the Rumble-title win scenario. In fact beating Hunter has always been the only end game that makes any sense at all.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I agree with Jimmy on the Rumble issue, so Bryan wins it, then what? As soon as WM season kicks in Bryan's match unless it's against someone like Cena, Brock or Taker falls way down in the pecking order. I'm all for Bryan featuring in a big WM match but the question is come WM time will Bryan have a big match??

[Omega 354]

The problem with talking about a Rumble end game for Bryan is the inability for WWE to commit to upward movement anymore. That kind of thing sounds good, but it doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

Think about it. Bryan wins the Rumble and goes on to be in a/the title match at Mania. If that happens he almost certainly wins the belt. But, so what? He's 100% NOT going to be in the main event. He most likely won't be in the second biggest match. Depending on where the chips fall he may not even be in the third biggest. He'll be on the undercard. Bryan is NEVER sniffing the top of the Mania card while there is a crew of Rock, Brock, Cena, Taker, Hunter above him in the pecking order. The actual stars. And nowadays Mania is about only putting actual stars on top so that they can sell out stadiums and get 1M+ buys on PPV and break all-time profit records. There's no room in that structure for a new guy on the cusp of big stardom, but who can't be trusted yet, to be put over.

 

So my thing is, even if Bryan does win the Rumble and win a world title at Mania...just how big is that going to be really? Unless he wins it off a big star (and the only one who would be likely is Cena, and he's already done that), he's going to be in a midcard world title match beating someone of no real star-making value. What does that do for him? Maybe solidifies him as the new Punk. But with this kind of potential they really should be aiming higher. And as a fan watching the show I need more than that from them.

 

If there was a vaguely logical way to get the belt on Hunter between now and then, I'd say go for it. That sounds retarded, but at least Bryan winning the belt off Hunter at Mania is a satisfying conclusion to all of this. Otherwise, beating Hunter without a belt involved would still be much better, and much bigger, than the Rumble-title win scenario. In fact beating Hunter has always been the only end game that makes any sense at all.

 

I disagree with some of the reasoning you give, mostly because I think logically it makes sense to have marquee matches at mania but the fact that Bryan winning the belt off of (maybe) Orton might well be 3rd match from the top doesn't stop it being a wrestlemania moment and that, ultimately, is what this angle is being geared for. Benoit/Eddie winning both belts on the same night but only one match is top billing doesn't make the other not worth doing. What it does for Bryan is give him a "main event bracket" match at wrestlemania, he's not got one of those as yet. Again, you say thet brock/cena/taker/HHH are all above him in terms of being star draw for Mania but if WWE don;t push Bryan toward that WM main event spot then what's the point of ever trying with anyone?

 

However logically the booking for Hunter to have, by wrestlemania, go full on ego-maniac and have taken the title for himself and Bryan winning it off him and at the same time using that moment to wind down the angle does make the most sense. The rumble win simply makes the most sense in leading Bryan to that WM match.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I'm thinking of a Cena/Bryan rematch at WM Edited October 31, 2013 by Ciaran The King

[Guest Will O the Wisp]

That isn't a superman spot as much as it is a superface spot.

I agree it is a superface spot, first. However, by its nature it also was a superman spot. After Cole said his bit about it, I told my wife, "Cena wins clean." In her markiness she replied, "How can he win, his shoulder is hurt." :lol

 

A heel would have let the referee count him out. A babyface generally always wants to eschew countouts and DQs and win properly in the middle of the ring. And this guy is the superface to end all superfaces. Cena accepting the count out would have gone against everything already-established about his character.

If it has to be that way (and I think there are ways around doing it that way) then why do the spot at all. Have Sandow "unconscious" out on the floor. Then Cena chases, and Cole says his thing, and Sandow "comes to" right as Cena gets there. Hits Cena's tricep and runs in the ring. Cena is superface, but not superman.

 

I thought kicking out of his new finish was a lot more offensive, but I also don't think Sandow should have changed his finish to that anyway, so whatever.

 

On another note, the fact that I spent the whole match wondering "Was that his finish? Or is that his finish? Maybe he got a new finish?" is not good. State of the business I guess, nobody gets showcase matches so nobody gets to establish their moves and their finish. Not to mention getting a new finisher like every 18 months. Same as new entrance music every 18 months (or in Barrett's case, every few days). There's no identity being established.

 

Think about it. If you went through the roster list, getting to the mid and lower card guys, and the girls, how many finishers would you be able to identify? I would sure as shit miss some.

 

Yeah, I agree with all of this. However, the "chase Sandow outside the ring" spot came first, I think, and I was done with the match at that point. I don't know what it was about it, but that one really got to me.

 

IIRC The funny thing about his new finish is that the WWE "established" it by having him attempt it earlier in the match and get countered. Strong start for that move. It gets countered then kicked out of. :roll

 

In my head I was fantasy booking as the match went on. I was hoping that Vince just wanted Cena back temporarily to pop ratings and then he would leave for the other two months of his rehab. Thus, giving Sandow the belt for a short time.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Will O the Wisp

[Guest Ciaran The King]

I was hoping that Vince just wanted Cena back temporarily to pop ratings and then he would leave for the rest of his rehab.

 

#evenstronger

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

If it has to be that way (and I think there are ways around doing it that way) then why do the spot at all. Have Sandow "unconscious" out on the floor. Then Cena chases, and Cole says his thing, and Sandow "comes to" right as Cena gets there. Hits Cena's tricep and runs in the ring. Cena is superface, but not superman.

 

Because the finish wasn't Sandow winning by countout?

[Guest Ciaran The King]

The finish of the match was perfect, end of

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Seeing the replay of the main event angle for like the third time, it is really kind of amazing how bland Orton is. His promo here could have been delivered by a robot. And generic lines will do that to you, no doubt, but all his promos are incredibly wooden and boring. And like, Legend Killer Randy was a really interesting and dynamic speaker. Even later, there was that period of Raw where he would interrupt the show every week while he was injured and cut promos on everyone in sight, mainly Legacy, and he was cutting great promos then and came off like a huge star. But becoming the Viper has just destroyed his promos. He adopted that monotone and retarded speech pattern, and he seems incapable of shedding it. Its a shame because like I said, there was a time when he was a good promo. And even though it doesn't matter if he's a wallflower while the Mac Mans are there, I think Cocky Douche Randy would be a much better fit for the angle and the position he's in, instead of Robotic Viper Orton. Same reason he should have shaved.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Just because he's matured personally there is no reason for Orton not to be able to play the spoilt egotistical c**t that he was born to be. Ring wise everyone knows my opinion of Orton but as Jimmy said he promos and delivery of them are very bland to say the least. Maybe he feels he doesn't have to prove himself anymore therefore his promos are not what they were