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I don't like moves like that. It's very impressive athletically, and it does look cool, but wrestlers shouldn't do things they don't need to do. If the move is a tornado DDT, do a tornado DDT but don't jump through the ropes to do deliver it. This is probably why I don't like RVD, Sabu and guys like that. I can't remember who said it but I remember a quote along the lines of "everything in the ring should make sense" and I agree with that, everything in a wrestling match should be simple but meaningful. Things like this just aren't. I get suspension of belief and all that but come on...

 

I watched a video entitled 'Best 15 moves from El Generico' or something like that, and there was a move in there which annoyed me too. It ended up being a powerbomb but it was a 'double wristlock, pumphandle, spinning powrbomb' or something stupid and illogical like that. If the move is a powerbomb, do a powerbomb and leave it at that. You never saw someone like Cro Cop do three forward rolls before a head kick, and neither should wrestlers.

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I definitely understand both schools of thought.

 

I have two opposing views though.

 

1) If you took everything "unnecessary" out of wrestling, there would not be much left. In your example, a tornado DDT is even unnecessary movement compared to a DDT.

 

2) Real combat sports do unnecessary stuff too. Remember that guy that jumped of the cage and KO'd the guy with a head kick? A simple juke to the right followed by a head kick would have accomplished the same thing.

 

I totally understand your side, and can see why you would be against those kind of moves. My position is that there is a place for both.

 

Edit- I found the video for anyone with as fuzzy a memory as mine. It wasn't a KO, but a very impressive, if unnecessary maneuver.

[video=youtube;LH7oRb5Knjc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7oRb5Knjc

Edited by Will O the Wisp
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Without meaning to bring too much MMA to the Wrestling Forum, I think Pettis' kick against Henderson was a bit more than unnecessary, the fact that Pettis ran to the cage made Henderson drop his hands in a way that a more simple fake wouldn't have done, and in the end the kick connecting won Pettis the fight by decision in a very close verdict. Interesting timing too as the UFC re-match of their WEC fight is a week tomorrow.

 

I'm all for innovative move if it works in the realms of common sense, i.e. doesn't involve the opponent being in a stupid position for a long time. The Elix Skipper tightrope cagewalk headscissors has lost a lot of lustre with me over the years after I noticed just how long Chris Harris(?) has to sit there and wait for Skipper to get his move right.

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I don't like moves like that. It's very impressive athletically, and it does look cool, but wrestlers shouldn't do things they don't need to do. If the move is a tornado DDT, do a tornado DDT but don't jump through the ropes to do deliver it. This is probably why I don't like RVD, Sabu and guys like that.
While I understand your sentiment and I can agree to an extent, with this one you could argue that he was getting to his opponent before he has a chance to recover and this was the quickest way to do it.

 

That particular move doesn't look contrived where the receiver has to stand in the same position looking stupid while the opponent gets in position, so it can be explained in semi-logical terms as to why he did it.

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I think the move worked as Zayn was trying to entertain yet win at all costs
In the world of kayfabe, entertaining shouldnt even be in the top 1000 priorities of a wrestler. His only reason for being in that ring should be to win the match, not look cool or be funny or anything else. So in that regard, the move was stupid. But kayfabe is dead so whatever. Wrestlers now are marks for the marks. They mark out if they can get the fans to mark out.

 

I'm not really sure who's working who anymore...

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I can believe the move in as much as through the turnbuckles was the quickest route for him to get to Cesaro, and the most likely to catch him by surprise and therefore off guard.

 

In the realms of MOVEZ! it's nowhere near as contrived and blatantly set up as a lot of stuff out there. I thought it fitted in with the match really well.

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In the world of kayfabe, entertaining shouldnt even be in the top 1000 priorities of a wrestler. His only reason for being in that ring should be to win the match, not look cool or be funny or anything else. So in that regard, the move was stupid. But kayfabe is dead so whatever. Wrestlers now are marks for the marks. They mark out if they can get the fans to mark out.

 

I'm not really sure who's working who anymore...

 

Depends on the gimmick though. If their gimmick is being a show-off, like The Rock or whoever, than it's the kayfabe number one priority, or if they're openly trying to humiliate their opponent. I mean, why did Ultimate Warrior do his little pumping dance in terms of kayfabe? I'd say "because he liked it". People show boat in boxing and in MMA all the time, and wrestling should never, never, ever, never try to be as realistic as either of those, so it makes sense to me that a pro-wrestling, in a world of ridiculously heightened reality, would do something pointless to put on a show, like a super hero wearing a brightly coloured costume. There's a logic to it inside wrestling's own little fictional world, like kayfabe-physics, like how adding spins to a move makes it hurt more, or doing a move on a chair makes it hurt more, or getting pulled on the arm makes you run in a straight line, bouncing off anything slightly flexible for the rest of your life until you hit something.

 

I didn't find the move notably contrived anymore than wrestling in general. It had the element of surprise, Cessaro was ready to be attacked from the outside of the ring post, and wasn't watching the inside. It's like faking the jab to set up the straight, it makes sense to me.

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Oh I definitely agree that its not as blatantly fake and contrived as some stuff people pop for (Canadian Destroyer!)...

 

I think this is one of the reasons I love the old stuff with the big guys. Punch, kick, stomp. As long as they are over guys can pull of that stuff and be just as exciting as any high flyer or whoever.

 

Plus, its easier for me to believe that a clothesline or a simple forearm club across the back would probably hurt a whole lot more than some goofy flying spinning head scissors.

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Depends on the gimmick though. If their gimmick is being a show-off, like The Rock or whoever, than it's the kayfabe number one priority, or if they're openly trying to humiliate their opponent. I mean, why did Ultimate Warrior do his little pumping dance in terms of kayfabe? I'd say "because he liked it". People show boat in boxing and in MMA all the time, and wrestling should never, never, ever, never try to be as realistic as either of those, so it makes sense to me that a pro-wrestling, in a world of ridiculously heightened reality, would do something pointless to put on a show, like a super hero wearing a brightly coloured costume. There's a logic to it inside wrestling's own little fictional world, like kayfabe-physics, like how adding spins to a move makes it hurt more, or doing a move on a chair makes it hurt more.

 

I didn't find the move notably contrived anymore than wrestling in general. It had the element of surprise, Cessaro was ready to be attacked from the outside of the ring post, and wasn't watching the inside. It's like faking the jab to set up the straight, it makes sense to me.

No it doesnt depend in the gimmick...the priority should still be to win, or else why are you there? The Warriors prancing deal was his comeback, his psyche up. I'm not saying it was believable or realistic because its wrestling and as you said, it should have showmanship in it and not try to be as realistic as real sports, but all that aside, the sole purpose for having a wrestling match, in terms or kayfabe, should be to win.

 

Now, if you have your guy down and he's suffering or whatever, then sure, show off and do whatever, but you never see guys showing off or playing to the crowd when they are in trouble in the match right? Well theres a reason for that, because at that point they arent confident they are going to win.

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I like both as different things. I love lucha libre, but it isn't trying to be a fight, it's a stunt show with comic book demi-Gods flying about the place, and pro-wrestling, like, American pro-wrestling, isn't far behind, it's like a live action old-school James Bond movie where you have to have to the right view or it looks incredible stupid. The worst, for me, is that Japanese nonsense where they pretend to have an MMA fight, and really hit each other, but with no guard, and then one of them agrees to lose. F*ck that, MMA exists already, I don't need actual combat sports with predetermined endings, because, well, boxing exists already too.

 

I mean, anything involving Irish whips in basically any match is on thin-thin ice when it comes to being believable.

 

I do, however, agree with you that the Canadian Destroyer looks awful.

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The thing with Irish whips and people coming off the ropes in general has become so regular, as in I dont think there is EVER a match anymore where it doesnt happen, that you never question it anymore. I mean, I wouldnt even stop to think how ludicrous it was unless I actually did stop to think. Its funny really. Its like the superplex...one guy nails another guy with a suplex from the top, and only one guy sells it, even though they both took the exact same bump. I mean, you just dont even bat an eyelid at the ridiculousness of it.
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Its like the superplex...one guy nails another guy with a suplex from the top, and only one guy sells it, even though they both took the exact same bump.

 

This is what annoys me about almost all 2 man top rope moves. Though the superplex makes some sense if they sell the lower back, since the "victim" is higher and rotating at a higher velocity (therefore carrying higher angular momentum into the impact) than the person delivering it. But they rarely do.

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I should point out that I'm not a stickler for realism or anything like that, but I just think too many wrestlers go out of their way to do moves which look spectacular rather than making sense. I don't have an issue with a tornado DDT, even though the spinning is unnecessary, but thinking about it in kayfabe, you could say that the wrestler doing the move is trying to cause more damage by twisting the neck and so on. Realistically, a tornado DDT makes no sense but it's acceptable. However, the jump through the ropes is just not necessary, I don't think, and it smacks of a guy who is trying to do the absolute flashiest thing he can do purely for the sake of doing eye catching moves. It's designed to wow the audience rather than make sense.

 

Wrestling isn't real but it should at least make sense, even if you have to make excuses for it. Things like the Sabu triple jump moonsault or whatever, are just awful. I'd much rather see two guys punch, chop and kick each other than see flip-flopping nonsense like this.

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