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*** WWE Bragging Rights 2009 Discussion Thread - October 25, 2009 (#1) ***


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Because he'd been in the hold for 40 odd seconds and he couldnt take anymore? Because heels arent supposed to overcome the pain and beat the clock?


Yeah but Orton was built up through that whole match as a crazed genius, mechanically taking out Cena, almost like he was playing a game with Cena....and what kind of genius taps out when there's only 3 seconds left.

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Okay then if he didn't know how much time was left, why didn't he immediately tap out like he did at the beginning?




The first fall was like 5 minutes in. He tapped immediately before the STF could do any damage so he got out of it unscathed, knowing he had 55 minutes to get the fall back. Smart move.


After an hour's match, there's 45 seconds left and Cena puts him in the STF. The scores are tied so if he taps here thats it, he loses the title. Of course he doesnt want to tap now! He knows there's only like 30 seconds left to go, but he doesnt know exactly what the time is since he's not facing the clock to be able to check. So he holds on as long as he possibly can, but he finally cant take any more pain and taps.


I'm almost stunned that you cant see the difference between the first fall and the last.


EDIT: So anyway, this PPV. It feels really strange to say that it was a really good show, since there were only five matches, but there was nothing bad on it.


Morrison/Miz was a good opener, but nothing more, which was a shame since I was anticipating more from the build. Finish wasnt the best either.


Divas Tag was pretty damn good, Gail working with Nattie, Michelle and ESPECIALLY Beth excited the hell out of me, Kelly as Ricky Morton was great, and the finishing moments were good too. Melina's counter into the small package was cool. Nothing bad here.


Four-way was quite the...well, quite the four-way. Constant clustering and breaking up and big moves and such, really good. The part where Rey broke up Dave's pin, then Dave broke up Rey's pin was AWESOME. My favourite part. All of the Rey/Dave stuff was great. Finish was fun. Post-match was weird, the interview bit at least. It went on a little too long with Rey repeating "we were close" a thousand times before they did it. But the actual beatdown was great, especially Rey begging for mercy and Dave just kills him on the barricade.


Raw v Smackdown tag was fun. One of those WWE-style multi-man tags that they nearly always do well. Cody and Truth starting the match after their backstage segment was a nice little touch. A lot of cool spots here - Finlay v HBK, the Harts v HBK, Mizark catching Truth but then Matt killing him, Kofi running wild, and especially the finish. The finish ruled. I dont think anyone could have possibly not seen that coming, but...who cares? It was the right finish and it made sense and it was great. Jericho is a great man. I enjoyed Cole and King being totally partial, all "KICKOUT! KICKOUT!" for some nearfall. I've enjoyed all of the commentary from the Raw v SD angle.


Loved Cena/Orton. I could understand people not enjoying it since it was a really, really long match, and I could understand people not enjoying it since it was Cena/Orton #58. But I enjoyed it. I really did. Everything about it. Orton was FANTASTIC. Cena, especially in the final minutes, was great too. All the falls were great except for the needless double pin. Finding a way to get Legacy out of the match after they interfered was quite well done. The pyro business was awesome, just genius. All of the big spots - going through the stage, the pyros, the stairs shot and the receipt, FU through the table - worked. Finishing sequence was awesome. I called it a fair way out, but again, it doesnt matter as long as its the right finish. I mean, I'd watch it again, to put it that way. The only thing I will say is that I wish JR was there to call it.


So yeah, pretty much everything was good. It still doesnt feel like a "yeah, GREAT PPV!" deal, since there were so few matches, but yeah.

Edited by Jimmy Redman
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Really not a bad show at all, a Rhodes/Kingston program would definately be something new and interesting!!


I thought the ironman was done pretty well, this was definately different to others because they probaby couldn't have entertained the crowd for an hour with just wrestling. The match as perfectly placed, the ony sad part was you could see the ending coming from quite a way away, it was just a bit too predictable. Interesting to see where Orton goes from here, i understand what people say that the tapout makes himlook a bit weak (especially one could argue when the crowd were clearly counting down from 10)


The two things i realy hated about the match ws firstly Cena's head being glued together, I know that sounds barbaric but that matc needed blood, this was meant to be the culmination of a war, it would have been more epic with the blood, and having the doctors come in and clean him up just killed the momentum for me for a while, it's the perfect example of WWE-PG stopping something that could have added to the drama of the match.


Secondly I wasn't really a fan of how one minjute Cena can be just about dead, and then five minutes later be running around, lifting orton and walking around like he felt no effect of the near 20 minute beatdown put on him by orton, if kind of makes it look orton a bit stupid as if orton's offence never had that mch impact. But Cena does that every match, sells for dead and then springs up as if nothing happened.


Shame Cena's got the title now, but he's only going to go onto another overplayed fued with HHH or someone like that, whereas hopefully Orton'sfued with Dibase will start to slow build nw, which will be WAY more interesting.

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I thought it was a very good show, probably enjoyed it more than any other WWE PPV this year.


The crowd were great all night, wanted to be entertained.


Opener was really fun and perfect for both men. I thought The Miz was great and the match was ideal for setting the scene.


The womens match was not bad at all, no horribly messed up spots and pretty much everything worked, so yeah full marks.


The 4 way was typical WWE multi-man stuff, but it worked really well. But I really loved the after match angle. Makes a change for Batista to actually say "I'm gonna tear your head off" rather than be all buddy and then turn on him. Loved him throwing into the barriers, that looked great.


The big Raw/SD match was really fun too, lots of nice stuff and I liked how they all wore their shirts, constantly built it up throughout the show, had the trophy etc. Just made it seem more special than it is. Finish was somewhat inevitable, yet still good and Jericho's reaction at winning was brilliant.


Now to the iron man. I thought it was pretty good. Certainly not great like the announcers were trying to sell, but good nonetheless. My only issue with it was also one of the things which also was good about it. The pace. It was reallllyyyyy slow throughout. It's fine being slow for say the last 20-25 minutes, but at times it made the Bret/HBK iron man look like Rey/Psicosis from late 95. Just one move/punch then stall for 2 minutes, and this was after about 20 minutes! And in some of the super slow bits they were lucky they had a nice polite crowd cause I was a little worried they'd get the boring chant going.


There were some very nice creative spots though, the fireworks was real cool, Cena going through the lights too and Orton through the barricade. I preferred the I Quit match if I'm honest. Didn't like the finish though.


I mean I don't buy "Orton can't see the clock" considering you've got 15,000 people chanting "5....4..." etc. I mean have him pass out, or have him be in it for 5 minutes and then get to 30 seconds to go and he just can't hang on. But to be in a hold and last for nearly a minute and then tap out with 5 seconds to go just doesn't make any sense to me. Its like if he can hold out that long, why tap with a mere 5 seconds left?


But I thought it was pretty good, IMO certainly not MOTY as HBK/Taker for me was miles better, but that's personal preference.


All in all though a really good PPV from start to finish and thoroughably enjoyable.

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Batista was in his element during the beat down of Rey, he always looks great when he doesnt have to sell (which he sucks at) and doesnt have to talk (which he sucks at). Just have him beat up midgets, he looks good. 4-way match was decent too, I quite liked it.


The main event I felt they blew their load in the first 30 minutes and the last 30 minutes dragged and was pretty boring. It really dropped off in the 2nd half for me, I think it was booked and laid out well but I'd have done the 2nd portion of the match first and vice versa.

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Well I was critical in the extreme that Orton and Cena would work again. Let alone in an ironman match.


Humble pie time.


The match was great. The first half was the best, but I loved the entire match. I do find minor fault with the end, which made Orton look bad. They should have let him survive the 4 seconds. Then restart and a second STFU, or whatever the move is now. Would have made Orton look better. Overall though great effort by both.


The entire show was superb. Miz and Morrison had a good match, very over with the well into it crowd.


The divas were good, good for wwe divas. Best divas match this year.


Four way was typical, with the obviously coming Batista turn. It still managed to entertain me highly.


The 14 man was great. Matches with so many men can be disjointed, this wasn't. All 14 worked their ass off to make a great match. Was it me though or was Mark Henry never (legally from a tag) involved in the match?


All I can say is this is WWE's best overall PPV of the year. On a par with WM, but actually a tad better. Miles better than some of them.



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Morrison vs Miz - This a good opener, certainly the Miz's best match to date, although I'm confident that's more down to his opponent than his own limited in ring ability. Even though Morrison lost, the match made it very apparent that he carried their team.


Diva Match - This was actually suprisingly good. Once the rest of the bland on over divas were left out and it came down to a little mini match between Beth and Melina it became pretty exciting. Melina really stepped up her game here tonight and looked by far WWE's best female wrestler.


World Title 4 way - I thought this match was fairly poor, WWE usually do 4 ways well, and make it look like it could go either way. But this match was just 100% putting over the Undertaker, the commentators from the start claimed he was the favourite (even though the champion in never favourite in these matches). Punk was made to look like an absolute nobody, Rey never looked threatening, and even Batista was made to look very weak in this match (which made the heel turn very predicatable). The heel turn itself I thought was great, very intense, shame the crowd didn't remoltey care, and possibly cheered for him more than before the turn.


7 on 7 - I did quite like the finish for this match, but other than that, witht the quality of wrestlers in the match, it felt more like the main event of Raw, than one of the main events on a PPV. DX and Jeri-show were the only ones who came off looking remotley threaten, the fact that there was another 10 people in the match just made them all look like faceless jobbers.


Iron Man match - As far as iron man matches go this was one of the better ones (Not as good a Kurt vs Brock). My only problem was that it was just so close all the time, I thought Cena should have gone a few down and made a massive comeback to add more excitement, as such an even match with such a standard finish just didn't come off as epic, like it should. There were some nice touches to make it more exciting (like the piro thing), but at an hour long there was still a fair few fast forwardy bits.


Overall, it was an ok PPV. The Iron Man match meant that it was only a 5 match card, and the other 2 main events just weren't upto scratch. Other than the main event, none of the other matches seemed like they deserved to be on PPV.

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I fell asleep during the Ironman match. I watched the first 30 minutes or so, then woke up to see the last 5 minutes. I'm not making a "Ah, that match was boring," joke, I just nodded off. I actually really enjoyed the match. What I saw of it anyway.


It was a pretty good PPV all around, with the 7 on 7 being my favorite match of the night. I have to agree with Jimbo, WWE is great at pulling of multi man matches like this. I just hope Survivor Series is just as good.

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Really liked the whole PPV, best I have seen in a long time!


Opener was a really good start to the show and set things up nicely with the crowd, Diva's put on the best match any diva's have had in ages (minus the last second screw up from Melina), 4-Way was really good fun as was the 7-On-7 team match.


Ironman was by far best of the night though, really susprised me and had a few really funny moments in it if you looked, such as Cena picking up the garbage he dropped out of a bin while hitting Orton with it and Cole nicking King's water bottle while he was distracted by Cena.


Some of the spots were great and seeing Cena bleed (although I am not sure that was planned) was really good after the Hell In A Cell PPV which went bloodless


Really well done WWE

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It's being reported that there was never any intention on WWE's part for John Cena to bleed during last night's Bragging Rights PPV. Cena was legitimately busted open the hard way, and when it happened, it's being said that Vince McMahon began to panic back stage, and he ordered that Cena be cleaned up immediately which is why the clock was stopped during the bout.


Because of WWE's strict "no-blood" policy due to their TV PG rating, Vince made the decision to have Cena treated during the bout as opposed to after so that WWE could avoid any issues with upset fans. Furthermore, it's being said Cena and Orton were supposed to work part of the match in the crowd, however that idea was nixed during the bout as Vince wanted to avoid a situation where Cena could have possibly bled on a fan. If that were to happen, WWE could have faced serious consequences from the state Athletic Commission which could in turn hurt Linda McMahon's senate campaign.

Credit: PWInsider
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"upset fans", read: "political opponents"


Since thats the only reason they're doing it anyway, having someone bleed right in the middle of this campaign wouldnt have been good for them. Shame though, the blood really should have been left alone.


And if they actually did change the match mid-match, might account for that period between like roughly 23-18 minutes left, where NOTHING happened. Might have been trying to eat up the time they missed in the crowd. Even though they were in the crowd for like 2 minutes anywho.

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What is kind of amusing to me is that Linda McMahon has been coming under fire for the angles WWE has put on over the years and now Vince is worried that having blood in a match will adversely affect her chances of winning the Senate seat.


The reason I find it amusing is that the real stuff that politicians do is just as bad or worse than what WWE pretends to do in their angles.


I am probably getting too much into the details here, but everyone keeps saying that Orton tapping with four seconds left in the match was illogical or a bad move and that the crowd counting down the time. I have two defenses to that, actually.


First, the crowd also counted down when that last rest period was almost over. Secondly, with Orton in the supposed pain of Cena's STF (I still refuse to call it the STF), I don't think that he would have been able to hear the crowd counting. Not to mention the fact that the referee was more than likely doing the usual "do you give up?" routine while Orton was in the hold. Again, I am probably looking too much into this, but still.

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I am probably getting too much into the details here, but everyone keeps saying that Orton tapping with four seconds left in the match was illogical or a bad move and that the crowd counting down the time. I have two defenses to that, actually.


First, the crowd also counted down when that last rest period was almost over. Secondly, with Orton in the supposed pain of Cena's STF (I still refuse to call it the STF), I don't think that he would have been able to hear the crowd counting. Not to mention the fact that the referee was more than likely doing the usual "do you give up?" routine while Orton was in the hold. Again, I am probably looking too much into this, but still.


Lol so being in an STF means you can't hear 15,000 people?


In the grand scheme of things it's certainly not going to hurt him or anything like that, but it's just a bit lazy and doesn't really make sense considering he'd already been in it the best part of a minute, so why wait that long...and then tap out with 5 seconds to go? Just dumb really. As I said if he could gut it out for a minute before, I can't see why he couldn't do 5 seconds more. I mean if he's been in for 2 minutes and there's 30 seconds left then fine, but with 5 seconds left he looks a bit stupid. But its a minor fault anyway.

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Maybe they're just not meant to acknowledge outside chanting regarding timing, who knows?

I imagine it would probably all turn into one long blur of noise after a while anyway when you're trying to focus on so many things at once...I can't imagine wanting to suddenly have my attention distracted to something external to the match.


Still, It's all speculation anyway - I just don't think they were really meant to {or able to?} listen a great deal to the chanting.

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Lol so being in an STF means you can't hear 15,000 people

That makes sense, I think. The first 40 seconds, youd be fine, but the last few, when your body is pushed to it's limit, you wouldn't hear. Is the STF a choke hold? It looked like it, so you could also say it was Orton slipping into unconciousness and tapping instinctively. But being in a hold like that is like weightlifting. If you can do 10 reps, you're ok for the first 8 but the last 2? You won't be conscious of what you're doing, if you're getting up to 100% effort. Your mind goes blank. You don't hear someone two feet above you saying "one more!".


Orton tapping late can make sense. I don't think WWE meant it to be like that, but that logic works.

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