Is it right to be so upset?

[Omega 354]

right before anyone gets on their high horse this is NOT about Benoit this is a general topic on celebrity and death so I don;t want people to start off saying "how dare you this" and "How disrespectful that".

 

Now I remember when Princess Di died and suddenly the world seemed to be full of people crying and weeping about the loss of this wonderful woman. I remember little black ribbons being gien out at the dept store I worked at. All I was thinking was "what the f...., you never met this woman, she never personaly touched your life with her "kindness" and at the end of the day she was just another charity worker". I couldn't and still can;t grasp how some people are so overwhelmed at the death of a "personality".

 

Now this is not to say that I don't feel sorry for the two princes and Di's family as obviously thats a very sad event in their lives but what I think is worse is that they were forced to endure their sadness in public for the "benefit" of the ghoulish public who had bought into the mad hysteria her death had caused. All the people who lined the streets and left thousands of pounds worth of flowers to rot outside Buckingham palace caused 2 boiys to walk through the street being gawped at by strangers who DID NOT KNOW THEIR MOTHER!!! there must be like 0.01% of the populus that actually met her and could honestly be upset to the crying and wailing degree that was witnessed by the media.

 

what about if Fergie dies in a car crash? will all the proles line the streets at her passing? They should, Fergie did not drop one charity after her divorce whilst Dianna dropped all but the select few charities that would give the best headlines (ie landmines, AIDS, Cancer etc).

 

Touching on Benoit, I was reading the thread on the US scene and there were people saying they bawled their eyes out when they found out. Now I am as sad as the next guy about what happened and the tragedy that it is but I never met Chris Benoit. I watched the guy wrestle on TV a bit, just like everyone else on the forum. I can't understand why it would cause a rational human being the burst into tears at the news. You do realise that people die every day in far worse situations than this? Millions of kids starve to death all across the world and even in your town. When you read about the local man stabbed to death by hoodies do you burst into tears then? Realisticaly you probably could have met that guy rather than the personality you see on TV.

 

Like I said I'm not suggesting that people can't feel sad about someones death even if they didn't know them. Sadness is fine because death is a sad thing. You can be upset about Dianna, Eddie, Benoit or whoever but perhaps a bit of perspective is required. Just because your upset does not mean you have to be as upset as it is possible to be to show you are bothered.

 

Or not, what do you guys think?

Edited June 28, 2007 by Omega

[Guest Jung]

I depends on the perspective.

 

The only problem I found with Diana's thing was the media. Absolutely roasted her for a couple of years before hand, dishing as much dirt as they could, to try and make out she was a ***** basically.

 

Then she dies, and the act like an angel has died, stolen from us, that she was the greatest human to ever exist. It just smacked of typical media reporting.

 

With grief it really depends on how someone affected you. If Benoit was a lot of people's favourite wrestler, they were upset because someone they admired and looked up to so much has gone. Someone you took inspiration from has passed.

 

Famous people get more admiration in death, cause the media cover them and we see them more, can relate to them more in a strange way, than some bloke you never saw/heard of who got stabbed.

 

Overreaction? I dunno, I can't comment on how other people feel.

 

Brasseye and Chris Morris did have a good guess though, seeing how many celebs could throw themselves anmd endorsing the next charity or who could get the best flowers. Sometimes it really might be a status thing, like 2oh well I was there on the streets when Diana died" thus in their mind, it makes them a better person than you?

 

I haven't a clue, just guesswork.

[Guest Gemsi]

If it was an actor who I liked who'd died, I'd be sad, but not bursting into tears over it. Infact, after 2 days I'd probably have forgotton about it.

 

There's other instances where people have died though, a lot of friends I'd made online. I'd never met them, some of them never even seen a picture of, but they'd touched my life in a huge way. Every now and then, I spare a few moments thoughts for these people, and for everyone they loved who was left behind.

One of my favourite singers, Alice Martineau, died shortley after I first heard about her. She was a huge inspiration as she'd coped with such a lot with CF and was on the transplant list, and still managed to achieve her dreams of modelling and singing, making her first album and making a documentary about her life. I still cry for her. Yet again, never met her, never spoken to her.

 

I guess this must be how people feel about Benoit's family. Coupled with confusion with what he's done, and the fact he was there hero, it must be hard.

 

Sometimes, I think you just can't help but be stricken with grief over someone you liked dying, whether you knew them or not.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Gemsi

[Burakiosaurus 129]

i would only be really upset if any of my favourite football players at my supported team died.

 

apart from that, they are people i don't know or care about so if they die, they just die in my eyes, nothing more, nothing less.

[Nimf 324]

i would only be really upset if any of my favourite football players at my supported team died.

 

apart from that, they are people i don't know or care about so if they die, they just die in my eyes, nothing more, nothing less.

The way you would feel about your favoutire footballer is I guess the way some people feel about other famous people. I remember being devestated to the core when Freddie Mercury died, someone who's music I loved and who I adored.

 

I think the grief people feel about famous people or about someone they have never met is also grief for themselves-the fact they will never have the chance to meet this person or that this person will no longer be a part of their lives. You don't have to know someone to grieve over them. I never met my brother and sister yet I grieved.

[Burakiosaurus 129]

but you also have the grieving period which would and should be different for 'celebrities' as such and then those close to you

[Nimf 324]

but you also have the grieving period which would and should be different for 'celebrities' as such and then those close to you

Oh I agree-and I think a lot of the "public grieving" that sometimes goes on can be a lot to do with it appearing to be trendy, if that makes sense? The expression "jumping on the bandwagon" springs to mind on those occasions.

[Burakiosaurus 129]

yeh, agree on that one. was evident for Diana and the Queen Mum.

[Nimf 324]

Very much so. Which is a shame as there were bound to have been people out there whos lives had been truly touched by these people yet didn't feel the need to grieve in public.

[Dead Crow 370]

I can understand why people got upset over guys like Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit, kind of in the same way as footballers or actors or celebrities. In the case of wrestling, you're watching these guys every single week, sometimes a few times a week and some people almost live through their heroes. You see a guy like Benoit who was a great wrestler and people want to be like him, they want to celebrate his wins and share his triumphs, fake sport or not. And when they die, for some people are part of themselves dies and it's a shock to the system. No one wants a hero to die in such tragic circumstance.

 

I'm sure it's the same with celebrities. You see someone so much that you almost feel a part of them, despite knowing absolutely nothing about them. That's what hit so hard for Benoit - everyone thought they knew him, and no one knew a thing. That in turn creates anger because people have been "misled". But in reality, they were misled by themselves rather than the man himself becuse they allowed themselves to believe so strongly about a guy they didn't know.

[Omega 354]

You see someone so much that you almost feel a part of them, despite knowing absolutely nothing about them. That's what hit so hard for Benoit - everyone thoughtthey knew him, and no one knew a thing. That in turn creates anger because people have been "misled". But in reality,they were misled by themselves rather than the man himself becuse they allowed themselves to believe so strongly about a guy they didn't know.

 

without trying to quote you out of context Draven this is what I mean, people don't know Chris Benoit, they didn't know Dianna or whoever. Even if a member of your favorite footie team died or a band you like you still don't know these people (unless you do actually know them personally not just watched them). Thats what was so staggeringly obvious about alot of the "grief" with Benoit. It was all tears and comisserations until we got the rest of the story at which point I'd say 80% of people changed their minds about how great a guy he was.

 

Now I'm not saying they don't have the right to change their minds, in fact it shows they have some semblance of perspective. what would peoples opinions have been if it had turned out he'd just beaten up his wife or maybe something like that and you didn't know it and it didn't turn up at the time of his death? If Jonathan King or Gary Glitter hadn't been caught they'd still be seen in a good light and i'm sure people felt duped when they found out the truth about both of them.

 

Another one that comes to mind is George Best. The guy was drunken womaniser who contributed not very much but some great football and some very embarising moments for his family. He didn't save lives, he wasn't 10 foot tall and all the people who lined the streets to say goodbye never really said "hello" to him in the first place.

 

What I'm saying is that since you can't possibley "know" what these personalities are like how can you really grieve for them? Unless you worked with Benoit or Eddie or were helped by Dianna then what have you really lost? Seems to me that it's not a lot in the terms of your own life, icons they maybe but they aren't family or friends or the people who you really will grieve for when they are gone.

 

You can wish them R.I.P and send condolences to their family because that is the mark of a caring human being but such an outporing of grief over what is basically a fictional character (becuase the real person behind the celebrity is very different) that you have watched from a very long way away, even if you stodd 2 foot away slapping their backs as they passed, just isn't rational.

[Nimf 324]

Grief is never rational, whether it's for someone youve never met or your best friend. That's the whole thing with grief-it's illogical in every way.

[Dead Crow 370]

What I'm saying is that since you can't possibley "know" what these personalities are like how can you really grieve for them?

Read all the bits of my post that you didn't quote.

[Guest dpddave]

Ive never cried over a celebrity,i dont know them and they sure as hell didnt give a sh*t about me,ive been shocked by deaths but never felt the need to cry....that could change though if the guy of deal or no deal was to drop off :)

[Omega 354]

Read all the bits of my post that you didn't quote.

 

I did say I was quoting you out of context but for that sake of answering you I found that the bits I didn't quote condradicted the 2nd bit that I did. Whether these people are idols or hero's you still don;t know who they are or what they are "really" like. Sure you may be inspired by Benoit athleticism or Dianna compassion but when these people pass away in whatever circumstances you are still able to be inspired and you certainly have not "lost" something in the way that happens when you lose say a close friend or family member.

 

Don't be quick to make the conclusion that I'm saying that no grief is the way people should be. I'm talking about a proportionate response. To answer Nimf, I'd say that grief may well be irrational if the situation is warrented (like I said family or friend) because it affects you more deeply than the loss of an influence (even a deep one). I can't believe that people who are old enough to know how the world works would literally shed tears over the death of a wrestler, no matter who he is. I'm completely behind people feeling sad and upset at anyones death and that people who they have watched and admired will probably be more upsetting than the death of a total stranger BUT if you can't deal with a death like this than how hard are the real knocks of life going to hit you? Grief in instelf is not irrational, it is a feeling and is only what it is. What is irrational is how people handle grief and I think people have become coddled by the media into feeling that grief must be a big thing about a fallen star. Grief is not just shown by haveing a massive blub or moping about feeling sorry for yourself and grief isn't just a force 10 thing there are shades and levels of grief.

 

Or as I said I could be wrong and just some emotionley stunted weirdo who only cares about those close to him.

 

Here's a hypothetical question, what if one of the forum regulars died in a car crash. This is a person who you would have talked to and shared things with and had a personal relationship to. yet they aren't family and generally they aren't people you know physically (although I am well aware that people are friends off the net and theer are meet ups etc). Are they more or less important than the people we have mentioned? If I popped my clogs tomorrow would that affect you more or less than learning of Eddie's death? Eulagies by E-mail only by the way! ;)

[Paul 584]

I think its more appropriate to ask if its wrong rather than right.

[Omega 354]

I think its more appropriate to ask if its wrong rather than right.

 

that was rather Zen, DS. I think I used right because I was talking about the level of being upset, whether the right level is one so high. I'd have used wrong if I meant that any showing of grief was wrong..... I think. :P

[Paul 584]

The right level for one person will be OTT for another though.

[DC 536]

I think its more appropriate to ask if its wrong rather than right.

Isn't that basically two sides of the same question?

[Paul 584]

Same question but approched from a very different perspective. Its the difference between proving (in court) that someone did something rather than the other person having to prove they didnt.

[Guest MojoPogo]

I dont think there is a right or wrong way to feel, its all absolutely dependant on each person. You may not agree with how a person feels but that doesnt mean that their feellings are any less valid. Its all a matter of perspective really.

[Omega 354]

I dont think there is a right or wrong way to feel, its all absolutely dependant on each person. You may not agree with how a person feels but that doesnt mean that their feellings are any less valid. Its all a matter of perspective really.

 

Ah, the good old fence sitter! ;) I kid!

 

I'm not saying that grief isn;t a valid emotion to feel at these events but that the level of grief may out weigh the situation. I can understand a younger person being upset becuase they will feel closer to these Tv stars because they seem to be tangible. I just think I've seen post from "older" people that made me think "oh come on, sure we're sad about it but really....."

 

It's really question about how we hold certain things as being something to be very upset about. I think there was a time when if famous people died people were sad about it but didn't leave floral tributes at the site of something that has no bearing on their lives before or after and certainly didn'tgushingly effuse about what a wonderful person someone was when they didn't actually know them.

[Red05 343]

Personally, I don't think it matters. There are no set rules on how much you can or cannot grieve, and how it should be done, so however you deal with it is acceptable. Within reason, of course.

 

One thing that gets my virtual goat (I don't have a real one, see), is when people say "my thoughts go out to their family and friends" etc. People just say that because it's just what you say, just the norm. They don't actually mean it, and in most cases two seconds later they've completely stopped thinking about it. I know that's just loosley based on the topic at hand, but I wanted to say it. :)

[Guest Walshy]

I agree with Draven on this, people get so upset because they see themselves in the celeb that they follow. Lets face it every celeb you considor your hero is because you see part of yourself in them, if they suddenly die then that part of yourself that gave you a sense of meaning (ie. they are doing the good I want to) suddenly stops, you no longer have someone to look up, so people become very upset over their hero, someone they can use to judge their own life against.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

I remember when Eddie Guerrero died, and the half a dozen or so kids at school, as well as my Religion teacher, were all crying with each other. And everyone else was thinking "WTF? He's just a wrestler". And even now, people look at us weird because we're upset about what has just happened with the Benoit family. From my experience, people dont understand how much we love wrestlers, non-marks just never get it.