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Samoa Joe


Jack
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There was a few posts several days ago (Depending on when I post this anyway), on Meltzer. A couple of people were mentioning his facts, and rightly saying they are usually right. Anyway, I kept meaning to mention a point about how certain people take his opinion, and turn it into a fact. My problem is with that, is whatever he says, people take it as the 100% truth, and one problem with that, si you get overrated talent, such as Joe, who, because of being so highly rated by these journalists, get recognised as one of the best wrestlers around. I think, Meltzer in particular giving Joe, 2 5 star matches in the space of less than a year, gives the impression that Joe is posssibly the best around now.

I disagree.

 

The wrestler who I can compare Joe to most, would have to be Bret Hart (Who is/was also very overrated I think). My main problem with their work, is each and every match is the same. Some would say Bret is the greatest of all time, yet nearly all of his matches featured the same routines, the same moves, and very little diffence. If you took a decent singer, who could perform one song brilliantly and it outshone every other singer, would it make the artist better? Yes. How about if that singer performs that same song for 20 years. Is he/she still the best singer in the World? Obviously not, and that is the problem I have with Joe and Bret. Neither did/do anything different in most matches they are in. Bret had his little choreographed routines such as (Pretending) going for the Sharpshooter, and ending up doing a low blow. Joe will take some punches, and respond with 10 slaps across the face. That is the main reason I don't consider Bret to be the greatest of all time, and Joe to be the greatest around now. I suppose however someone like Ric Flair could be mentioned here. Flair got by in his career doing minimal things, such as chops, and the odd suplex. For some reason, every Flair match looks different, and no matter Joe has fought whether it be Aries, Styles, Homicide or so on, the match looks the same to me. Whether Bret fought Shawn, The Undertaker, or Steve Austin, the match looked the same. There's a great quote on the Jake DVD, which goes something like "Jake didn't do big things, but he made the small things important". I think that applies to Flair aswell, but certainly not Joe or Bret.

If anyone can show me a Joe match, without things like 'Slap back. Kick back. Running knee drop', or waiting for an opponent to run at him, then a STO, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

Anyway enough of the negativity, I think it's time to realise why people consider him to be so good: The (possible) 3, 5 star matches.

They are;

 

- vs CM Punk (at RoH, Joe vs Punk II)

- vs AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels (at TNA, Unbreakable)

- vs Kenta Kobashi (at RoH, Joe vs Kobashi)

 

The CM Punk match, I will be honest, and say it is awesome. A nice slow start, with stikes, and submissions, which builds up over the rest of the match, and gets more and more high paced, until it slows down again at the end. That's obviously just a quick run through of it, but that's because it's hard to put such a great match into words, without doing a massive review of it, which frankly I can't be bothered doing. I will say, it is a must for any wrestling fan. Probably the best match in North America since Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat 2/3 Falls, which is saying something really.

 

The triple threat TNA match, isn't near as good really. It's a lot more high paced, and for spot fans, it will be a genuine 5* classic, but to me there isn't enough time allowed for the match to be given an identity. It's basically just Wrestler A, gets double teamed. Wrestler B beats down opponents. Wrestler C hits a massive spot. Mix that up a bit, and you have a constant high speed match, that, although very good in some areas, lacks massively in others. Ideally this should of been given at least another 20 minutes for it, as it seemed incredibly rushed. It was basically an hour long match, squeezed up, which didn't please me. Still Joe, did his job really. Although it had it faults, the match was very entertaining, and the actual problems, weren't his fault, so yeah, fair play to him.

 

The thrid match, would be againgst Kobashi in RoH. I must say however, I don't even know if this has been given the full 5 stars, or seen it in full myself, so I can't comment, but thought I should mention it anyway.

 

Now obviously no one wrestler alive, can get a 5 star match out of a crap wrestler, but a point people fail to look at is who he faced. CM Punk is one of the best wrestlers today, and I think is miles better than Joe, in all areas. I'm not for one second saying Joe or Bret are bad in the ring by the way, but they are overrated by the way. Anyway, I think Joe is a good worker, but Punk is 'Better Than Him'. Againgst opponents like Austin Aries, or Homicide who they have both faced, Punk has always had the better match, yet it seems Joe got most of the recognition after the match.

 

Then his match againgst Styles and Daniels happened, and yet again people praised Joe mainly. Are people blatantly ignoring the fact that the other two workers are two of the best today, and have had better matches than a complete "clusterf*ck" as some would say? The Iron Man between Styles and Daniels was better than the triple threat, because of it's build up, and it wasn't rushed.

 

And then we have his match with Kobashi. KENTA KOBASHI. From watching NOAH, I can tell how limited certain wrestlers are, and to me, Jun Akiyama isn't one of the best wrestlers I've seen recently, yet they had a brilliant match together. That shows how good Kobashi actually is, so if this match does get 5 stars, people will say how it was Joe, yet it's proven Kobashi can carry a good opponent, to a fantastic match.

 

Obviously, like I said before, a bad wrestler, againgst CM Punk, Styles and Daniels (Maybe not, I'm not sure), or Kobashi would of got such high ratings, but then again, it doesn't prove Joe is all that good, as all 4 workers mentioned, are above him I think, and I also think it's unfair most of the recognition of getting 5* matches, went to Joe, not the other workers.

 

While we're at it, how many times in his career has Joe fought a crap opponent? One time that springs to mind, is againgst Necro butcher, who couldn't put on a non-garbage match, to save his life (Any bookers reading this? BOOK NECRO, IN A ONE ON ONE!!!). That match was only saved by the fact you can kick, or punch Necro as hard as you want and it does f*ck all. The match was pretty crap though, apart from the kciks, which I admit were fun to watch, mainly because of my hate for possible the worst wrestler in the World. I enjoyed watching his horrible body getting booted by a seriously stiff Joe. That itself doesn't change the fact it was a crap wrestling match though. The whole way throuhg his career, how many bad wrestlers has he had to fight? In RoH he has been surrounded by Low Ki, Bryan Danielson, AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, CM Punk, Homicide, and more recently, Spanky, James Gibson, even Jay Lethal. All of them can get a acceptable match out of a bad worker, so has joe actually been challeneged againgst someone very bad? No. The indy circuit, and now TNA is full of good workers, or small jobbers, who will take his moves, and make him look good.

 

I think there is a lot of spin when it comes to Joe. People will look around news sites and see the numbers of stars and so on, and rate him hugely, without getting a full knoweldge of him. If you buy the 'Best Of Samoa Joe' DVD, analyse the matches, and see how similar they are, which is why he is so overrated. I can see why people like him, and rate him so high, but he is too one dimensional for me.

 

Joe can be good, when used right, but far from great on the whole.

Edited by Jack
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If anyone can show me a Joe match, without things like 'Slap back. Kick back. Running knee drop', or waiting for an opponent to run at him, then a STO, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

Jack, you really can't give that as a negative to a wrestler without saying it about EVERY wrestler in the world, I'll give you a few examples to show you what I mean...

 

If anyone can show me a HHH match, without things like 'Water Spit. High Knee, knee drop', or big blade job, then a Pedigree, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

If anyone can show me a John Cena match, without things like 'You can't see me' % knuckle shuffle. Pumping sneakers', toss running opponent over ropes, then a FU, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

If anyone can show me a Flair match, without things like 'Chop. Woo. Old man flop', or missing off the turnbuckle, Kneedrop, Figure four, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

You see all wrestlers have signature moves, every single one of them, you can't single out Joe for that, it's just silly.

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I know exactly what your saying, but Samoa Joe is best when he doesn't win the match. When he wins,, we all know it's the Muscle Buster for the 1-2-3. But when he loses it gives a great feel to the match. Final Battle 2004 is the best example. Aries escapes the usual finish, the Muscle Buster, and reverses it into the Crucifix Bomb. This gave the match a whole new perspective, a new depth. I would've liked it if the match would've gona for another 10 mins after that because it planted the seed in everyones mind that the "usual" wasn't going to work.

 

The problem with Joe is that his moveset is one already chalked for of mark out signatures. He is a guy known for flat out beating the crap out of people stiffly, he does everything that persona lets him do. As for finishers, he already has the Island Driver, Chimeraplex, Muscle Buster,and Island Choke. Something that would just blow the roof on a Joe match would be for someone to kick out of the Musclebuster or Chimeraplex. But that would make those people he beat constantly for two years look weak, and those guys a RoH main event mainstays.

 

Samoa Joe, no matter how repetitive, is still damn good. When it comes to pulling someone to a good match, I think he is one of the best ever. I really don't think Homicide is all that good. I rate Aries, Shelley, Low Ki, Joe, Punk, and Cabana over him.

 

As for him having good opponents, a crappy worker would never be able to face Joe in RoH because he would be booed out of the building. What sells me on Joe, is that every single great match he has had was lead by him. He hasn't had to drag anyone because he works with good workers, but it has been clear he was thing ring general

 

And as for Styles, I think he can still improve when it comes to taking the lead in a match. His series with Rave this year showed great improvements than his first NWA title run when he was pulled by everyone

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Jack, you really can't give that as a negative to a wrestler without saying it about EVERY wrestler in the world, I'll give you a few examples to show you what I mean...

 

If anyone can show me a HHH match, without things like 'Water Spit. High Knee, knee drop', or big blade job, then a Pedigree, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

If anyone can show me a John Cena match, without things like 'You can't see me' % knuckle shuffle. Pumping sneakers', toss running opponent over ropes, then a FU, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

If anyone can show me a Flair match, without things like 'Chop. Woo. Old man flop', or missing off the turnbuckle, Kneedrop, Figure four, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.

 

You see all wrestlers have signature moves, every single one of them, you can't single out Joe for that, it's just silly.

 

EVERYONE has there regulars, but please never mention John Cena and Samoa Joe in the same thread ever again, it's borderline blasphemy.

 

What Jack is saying is that all of Joe's matches are mirror image, which is mainly true. He is also saying that Joe is overrated because alot of people just say Joe is great with just seeing 1 or 2 of his matches, or none at all.

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What Jack is saying is that all of Joe's matches are mirror image' date=' which is mainly true. He is also saying that Joe is overrated because alot of people just say Joe is great with just seeing 1 or 2 of his matches, or none at all.[/quote']

Exactly. Flair, Jake, and more recently Stone Cold, or Triple H, can do very little in the ring, but make their matches seem totally different. To me, a hell of a lot of Joe matches are the same, which is my major problem with him. That routine is good for the first lot of times you see a wrestler, but Joe has been doing this same thing for years, with hardly any change.

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EVERYONE has there regulars, but please never mention John Cena and Samoa Joe in the same thread ever again, it's borderline blasphemy.

 

What Jack is saying is that all of Joe's matches are mirror image, which is mainly true. He is also saying that Joe is overrated because alot of people just say Joe is great with just seeing 1 or 2 of his matches, or none at all.

 

Did you know that Joe trained Cena? Obviously Joe is a better worker than a trainer. I have about 3 gigs of my computer dedicated to Joe matches from ROH and TNA and some others too, I love each match greatly, he is the best wrestler out there and I don't think his matches are mirror images at all, I think he will just get better and better, and he will someday soon be recognised as such.

 

Joe:worship :worship :worship :worship

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If anyone can show me a HHH match' date=' without things like 'Water Spit. High Knee, knee drop', or big blade job, then a Pedigree, I'll eat my hat. But that won't happen.[/quote']

The Chamber with Goldberg.

 

All HHH did was hit five punches and then Mr Sledgy. So, he didn't hit much at all. :)

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I have to agree alot with what Jack and Spiral are saying this thread...

 

I like Samoa Joe but also I realise that if you did put him in the ring with someone who couldn't take his offense or wasn't that good then he'd suck...

 

I never rated Dan Maff at all and when he faced Joe it was obvious that Joe had to carry him... Which resulted in a match that while not poor was no where near the standards of Joe v Aries etc...

 

Nothing for me can match his tussles with Punk in RoH simply because the storyline, build and the way the matches where structred where fantastic and made them the best matches in RoH history.

 

But the fact is that Joe has been built up so much in the indies and gets such honours as facing Kobashi one on one that people begin to hype and believe the hype.

 

Is he a good wrestler? Yes...

 

Does he go through set routines that need the occasional mixing up? Yes...

 

Can he pull off *5 match based on his own ability? No...

 

Without an exceptional, note that word, exceptional talent in the ring with him then Joe will not reach that height. Punk, Daniels and Styles, who are the best 3 wrestlers (or where until Punk dropped out of RoH) in North America are exceptional talents.

 

Also alot depends on timing given and storyline. For instance Liger v Joe. Liger is exceptional but TNA didn't give them any real build or time and so it was just crap (for me) and a waste of Joe's talents and a BIG waste of Liger's....

 

So this leads to the question... Should Joe get a run at the NWA belt like he did with the RoH one?

 

My answer is no because as a top liner he would have to face the likes of Jarrett, Rhino, Monty Brown, Nash even...

 

And those matches would never touch his previous work with Styles, Daniels or Punk...

 

Because none of them could mesh with him enough to produce the magic he did in RoH....

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Yes' date=' it was - but instead of dropping the strap because he was injured, he held onto it. Nice of him, wasn't it? :P[/quote']

 

I thought that was the one, I actually thought Goldberg was excellent in that match, he was booked right, for one night only anyway. Although yes, he should have won the strap.

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Joe is awesome.

 

I really mean it. I think he's just so talented and if used right, could go onto be a huge success in the wrestling industry. But I haven't always thought this way.

 

A few years ago, I didn't really like him. 2002 was the year of ROH's debut, and it was around late 2002/early 2003 that I started to watch the promotion. Joe was pretty over at the time, but I didn't think he was that great a wrestler. He seemed to be a stiffer version of Steve Blackman with a bit more flab. He'd do some martial arts strikes that looked great, but...that was about it. He stood out in ROH back then when the company was filled with people like Amazing Red, Spanky, the SAT and other small skinny guys you wouldn't think could be pro wrestlers. That's why I thought he was over.

 

Fast forward to 2004. Due to a lack of material I was able to get my hands on, I drifted away from ROH. I heard about the Feinstein scandal, and I thought it was just a matter of time before the company was doomed. Then I started to hear more about the company through tape reviews from places like 411. It was giving loads of praise to the "Reborn" era, and part of that was because of Joe as champion. I thought it was strange at first, because Joe didn't seem all that special when I watched and I was sick of the ROH where a less talented guy like Xavier would have the belt and much better wrestlers would be further down the card.

 

I can't remember how I started to watch again, but I did. I saw Joe's matches with everyone from AJ Styles, to Homicide, to Jay Briscoe to the epic feud with CM Punk that provided last year's Match Of The Year in Joe Vs Punk II. I was blown away. His ring work was just so much better than what I remember it being. Everyone loves when a wrestler gets intense and "snaps". Look at people like Ken Shamrock or Kurt Angle, who can send a crowd crazy but doing a motion to show they're pissed off and ready to end the match. Joe has the same. When he grabs someone and puts them into the Muscle Buster or Island Driver situation like an angry fat Samoan who's out for blood, I marked out. The Kokina Choke was just the perfect way to cap off such a high impact move, and always had the audience on their feet. I realised other things to Joe's work. His stiff offence always looked like it really did hurt, and he was always able to bust out some really nice spots when the time called for it. Joe has great stamina too for such a huge guy, and you can tell from two 60 minute draws against Punk that contained a hell of a lot of action. He also looked good playing the Goliath in danger in his matches against Styles, Briscoe and Aries. I think he's really under rated in that respect, as he's not afraid to look like he's been outclassed and beaten.

 

Joe's reign as champion is arguably one of the greatest that I've ever witnessed. In my opinion, I can't think of a better champion since Austin in 98. He put on outstanding matches and exciting title defences a few times a month, and the crowd were really getting behind him and loving every single match he was in. I don't think many people can argue that ROH is where they are today mostly due to a great title reign by Samoa Joe. This goes beyond being a reign that defined and made a wrestler's career. This was a title reign which shaped a company and send out a message that Ring Of Honor were back. I can't think of a better title reign since 1998 in any company. If you feel otherwise, great stuff, I personally couldn't have enjoyed Joe's era at the top any more.

 

And now, to TNA. He's been booked brilliantly by the company there, and has been made to look like a major, major threat. He's yet to be pinned or made to submit, and he's had some big wins over some high profile stars. In the BFG Gauntlet match, he got the biggest response out of everyone involved. When he was eliminated, the crowd was audibly upset and were arguably not as responsive for anything else in the show. He's been built into a big favourite in TNA.

 

So where does he go now? The answer seems clear to me. The top. I'd slowly move Joe into the Heavyweight division and continue his streak. If TNA continue to book him well, he might just make it all the to the NWA title and a good run there as well. I think Joe could be a HUGE star for TNA.

 

Every successful era has a defining style. In the 80s, it was over the top, almost cartoonish Good Vs Evil stuff that was popular. Hogan summed that up perfectly. In the late 90s, Steve Austin made up everything about that era, being a brash, pissed off, unapologetic bad ass. So what about 2005? The scene certainly does seem to be swinging back to perhaps the most important thing of all in the industry: wrestling.

 

I've seen the casual fan reaction for TNA's X Division, and it's incredible to read. You have people who in the past would never touch anything that didn't have the WWE logo on it going crazy for the high flying of the X division. WWE is losing ratings on Raw and Smackdown!, PPV buys are less than spectacular and attendences are falling. TNA are on a huge rise with a core fan base tuning in every week and steady ratings. I genuinely think that some people are sick of the Sportz Entertainment wackyness of WWE and want to see some exciting wrestling matches. That's why they watch TNA.

 

So where does Joe fit into that? He could be on top. I think they could build up to a Joe title run and let him do his thing with the other talented guys on the roster. But Joe can't work miracles. As mentioned above, his work with Dan Maff wasn't all that special. But I think if they build a Joe Vs AJ feud over the world title and let it play out for 3 months or so, they could make up for the crap with Jarrett that has ruined the image of the belt. Even other less talented guys, but more credible heavyweights like Abyss or Rhino could work some great stuff with Joe.

 

I think people will look past Joe's appearance when they seem him work a match. There's no one quite like him in the world, and I think TNA would be very smart to build him up as their next big star, allowing him a long run with the belt. I would personally love to see it, and in my opinion with the way that wrestling's focus seems to be going, it would be great to draw in a lot of casual fans too.

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Joe is a great wrestler... his offensive always looks painful and realistic....

 

my one problem with him and what may hurt his rise is his selling.. don't get me wrong i know he isn't meant to show much pain... but in matches like at Unbreakable where he is meant to sell he didn't do it very well... apart from his lack of charisma he is a great wrestler

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In my opinion Joe is an Ok wrestler but is terribly overated for the simple reason has he ever had to carry a really weak opponent on a big stage. The answer is no. Most of the guys Joe has faced are smaller than him and so he can work that same style night after night.

 

His matches where he wins as said are a bit predictable, perhaps innovative ways of winning would be a thing but then to his credit how many times have we seen HBK win with sweer chin music or Triple H with a Pedigree.

It is just what they do, makes the wrestler something special.

 

He however does not have the carrying ability to carry a heavier less talented guy in the ring, for example say if Joe ever went to WWE can you imagine how bad the Batista Joe match would be.

 

Joe is a fantastic talent no doubt but unless he could carry someone like HBK, Styles, Daniels, Angle can then you are nowhere near the best, and I think the lack of charisma will prevent Joe from ever reaching the true top of one of the big two.

 

Joe please prove me wrong

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I've only seen a few of his matches on The Wrestling Channel and he does some pretty good stuff for his size. Instead of the tired, old big man routine he uses some high risk and submission skills.

I can understand how his matches look very similar, which wouldn't happen if he did lose some weight and be able to do more and go longer in matches.

Yet, as I've already said, I've only seen a few of his matches but he does look pretty good and I now know what all the fuss is about.

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the problem i have with his finish is that as soon as he hits the muscle buster or what ever its called.. you know the kikita clutch is coming..

OK, what you have to consider is that it's a "two part finisher" - he hits the Muscle Buster and then the Clutch - he could pin after the Buster, but putting the submission on is just a "rub their face in it" move.

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You mean after the Kip Up' date=' Atomic Drop, Clotheslines, ScoopSlam, Elbow Drop, "tune up the band" and SCM. Yup, that's "out of nowhere". :D[/quote']

 

lol.. usually the SCM is blocked on the first attempt and they go back and forth... the SCM is only hit first time after the stapm on job matches like vs Rob Conway a while back..

 

look at WM21 versus Kurt Angle.. Kurt was screaming at him then BAM.. SCM OUT OF NOWHERE!!! :D

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In my opinion Joe is an Ok wrestler but is terribly overated for the simple reason has he ever had to carry a really weak opponent on a big stage. The answer is no. Most of the guys Joe has faced are smaller than him and so he can work that same style night after night.

 

His matches where he wins as said are a bit predictable, perhaps innovative ways of winning would be a thing but then to his credit how many times have we seen HBK win with sweer chin music or Triple H with a Pedigree.

It is just what they do, makes the wrestler something special.

 

He however does not have the carrying ability to carry a heavier less talented guy in the ring, for example say if Joe ever went to WWE can you imagine how bad the Batista Joe match would be.

 

Joe is a fantastic talent no doubt but unless he could carry someone like HBK, Styles, Daniels, Angle can then you are nowhere near the best, and I think the lack of charisma will prevent Joe from ever reaching the true top of one of the big two.

 

Joe please prove me wrong

 

I agree with that to some extent. Kevin Nash is a bad wrestler. But he has been pulled to some really good matches in his day by better wrestlers. Back in the day, when guys like Nash and Jarrett were starting out, wrestling was all about the basics and storytelling(for the most part). So even back then, guys who were crappy wrestlers were able to be pulled to great matches because they new basics and how to tell a story. Savage v Warrior from WM7 is one of the greatest matches of all, but neither come anywhere close to Samoa Joe and others when it comes to pure wrestlig ability.

 

These days, a great wrestler is defined by technical ability and storytelling ability. Back in thet day, storytelling was a must on any resume. There are a lot of wrestlers out there in todays world who lack basics and storytelling ability. The guys who have those are considered really good; Joe, Punk, AJ Daniels, HHH, HBK, Angle etc etc

 

JBL is able to be dragged to a really good match because he knows the basics and he knows the old school must, how to tell a story. JBL looks like crap against someone who doesn't know those two things, so does anyone. Saying Samoa Joe can't drag a bad worker to a good match is unfair, because your ideal bad worker is a JBL or Batista who get dragged to good matches by HHH and Angle, the ideal good workers. When Samoa Joe wrestles a bad worker on the Indy circuit, we're talking about the crap of crap. Spot Monkeys and extra generic big or not so big men.

 

Every good match Samoa Joe he has lead, and when working with guys like Low Ki, Aries, Punk, AJ(he wasn't nearly as good as he is now two years ago) etc etc that shows he is a good worker.

 

Samoa Joe v Batista would be a damn good WWE match (lets just imagine Joe would have to completely soften his style), because Batista knows the basics and knows how to sell a story, he is made to be dragged.

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You mean after the Kip Up' date=' Atomic Drop, Clotheslines, ScoopSlam, Elbow Drop, "tune up the band" and SCM. Yup, that's "out of nowhere". :D[/quote']

But he is at his best when he misses the SCM or it gets reversed.

 

Like Mind Games when he hits that awesome step-up SCM on the top rope

 

Or stopping the Lionsault before it happened with the Nip-Up SCM

 

Or stuffing one in Bret's face in OT of the Ironman match

 

Or Shelton launching himself across the ring into one

 

You can't say that for Samoa Joe and the muscle buster (although a case can be made for the Island Choke, he's mixed that up)

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I can understand how his matches look very similar' date=' which wouldn't happen if he did lose some weight and be able to do more and go longer in matches.[/quote']

Although Joe is obese, he can actually go a very long match. The Joe vs Punk match I mentioned, which shouldn't be a lot from http://www.RoHWrestling.com, really is must see. It's a very high paced, back and forth, exciting match, and goes the full hour.

Although it lasts an hour, I've seen 15 minute matches that seem to be a lot longer, which says something.

 

So, yeah, Joe's weight doesn't really affect his stamina, but I do think he could be far better if he wasn't so fat.

 

He would also have a higher chance of succeeding in the mainstream, if he looked better. the smarks who go to the shows live, appreciate workrate. I can't see casual fans getting behind such an ugly, uncharismatic wrestler to be honest.

 

EDIT: It's really worth picking up the Joe vs Punk II card. The under card matches are good, it features a phenomenal promo by Foley and Steamboat, and of course a brilliant match at the end.

 

https://www.rohwrestling.com/shoponline.asp?point=moreinfo&catid=187&id=807

Edited by Jack
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I think with Joe working in RoH and TNA, the fans appreciate what he does more than how he looks.

 

With the RoH and TNA fans being WRESTLING fans, he gets more pops and cheers than a WWE crowd would do.

 

If you look at the TNA & RoH rosters, none of them are roided up freaks, unlike the WWE where a lot of them are far too muscular to be truly flexible.

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If you look at the TNA & RoH rosters' date=' none of them are roided up freaks, unlike the WWE where a lot of them are far too muscular to be truly flexible.[/quote']

 

 

well Joes flab could hinder him sometimes :D

 

and i'm not sure but do you think Monty Brown could have done steroids at a time?? hes's the most ripped guy on the roster and looks immensly muscley... im not saying he did but am just wondering

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