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I was watchinmg the Monday Night War DVD the other night and the memories came flooding back,Goldberg's streak(and exciting matches), Sting, Hollywood Hogan, how bad a commentator Eric Bischoff was and it got me thinking. When Scott Hall first arrived on the scene, interrupting a crap match between Mike Enos and some other pleb, how cool it was. You had never seen anything like it. So I was wondering what the rest of TWO thought was the best ever entrance for a debuting wrestler in a company.

 

I thought Scott Hall's was great, but I also enjoyed Y2J's, Raven's into WWE, Taz(z)'s at the Royal Rumble, and Big Show's at SVDM. Oh, and RVD and Tommy Dreamer when they ran in on Raw had me marking out big time for ECW.

 

lol HDC

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The most disappointing debut ever for me was in WCW. They had been hyping for ages that a masked man with the initial J.L. would be making his debut in the company soon. Everyone assumed it would be Liger, but no it was Mr J.L.

 

How Jerry Lynn must look back and cringe.

 

Oh and I almost forgot about how cool it was when Gangrel made his first WWE appearance. The music, the ring of fiere and the blood spitting, it was great. Shame almost everything else he did amounted to nothing.

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I'd have to say that the Outsiders, first Hall, and then Nash made awesome debuts.

 

Rhyno's gore was superb.

 

But for me the best was Rick Rude's in WCW. The Halloween Phantom wrestles a match at Halloween Havoc. Schiavone being the chump that he is tries his hardest to give the whole thing away in an attempt to make himself look better by suggesting the move that the phantom just used to beat tom Zenk was just like the Rude Awakening.

 

Later on in the show Paul E Dangerously cuts a killer bit of mic work declaring war on WCW for taking him off the air. The thing that made it so good, other than Paul E being great on the mic is that for once in WCW it was so well thought out. Little details like Dangerously still having a manager's licence that they added in where usually they wouldn't think about it. Anyway, Dangerously says he's taking out the biggest star first, Sting, to hurt WCW, what would they be without Sting? The phantom comes out and when he gets to where Dangerously is the music starts playing, the mask comes off, and it's Rick Rude.

 

The whole thing was awesome and for me the best debut I've seen.

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Probably Kane when he debubt ripping the Cell off and Tombstoning The Undertaker, Also Jericho's debut was good.

 

The worst has got to be Justin Credible, he comes in and superkicks Scotty and helps X-Pac :roll

 

Dunno if this counts but I liked the Undertaker's return at Judgment Day 2000 and to a lesser degree his return at WrestleMania XX because it was already scheduled he would show up.

 

Also I think they should stop showing these video packages that tell you a wrestler is coming/coming back and have more surprise ones like they used to.

Edited by MARTIN316V1
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Probably Kane when he debubt ripping the Cell off and Tombstoning The Undertaker

That was brilliant, except the WWE/F shouldnt have built him up

Also I think they should stop showing these video packages that tell you a wrestler is coming/coming back and have more surprise ones like they used to.

100% agreed with that. The main idea of a debut or return is thee suprise. The way WWE booked the WMXX match with Taker and Kane was poor. Having Kane in a match and Taker forcing him to lose would of been better.

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"that's because he's a talentless piece of crap with no presence who wrestles averagely, talks badly, and has an awful look."

 

Opinion only Jayden. Clearly Paul Heyman, WWE officialls and ECW fans thought differently. And he had some great matches in ECW, Jerry Lynn, Sabu, Lance Storm, Tommy Dreamer, Shane Douglas, Kid Kash, Steve Corino, etc

 

Heck even Power Slam had him in the top 20 of the PS50 in 2000. So please a more objective opinion would be nice, your better than "he sucks" garbage.

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First of all, of course it's personal opinion. Everything I say on these forums is personal opinion. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be coming from me. If you want me to put "in my personal opinion" at the start of every one of my posts then that seems a little silly when it is quite obvious to everyone it's my opinion. The whole point of these forums is that we all get to share our opinions.

 

Ok if you want me to quantify my opinion of Justin Credible he's a talentless piece of crap with no presence who wrestles averagely, talks badly, and has an awful look for the following reasons....

 

Paul Heyman gave him the ECW world title at a time when all of his booking looked panicked. The company was going out of business and Heyman didn't know what to do. Heyman also had a habit of pushing not very talented guys and making them look good. How successful has anyone from ECW been once they left the company and left Heyman's creative? Mostly not very at all. Heyman made Credible look much better than he actually was.

 

He wrestled ok matches with Jerry Lynn, Sabu, Lance Storm, people who can drag a good match out of even the most average of workers, which Credible is. His matches with Corino I found boring, his matches with Dreamer, I thought were booked badly and really scrappy.

 

He can't talk at all. His catchphrase in ECW was shockingly useless and his promos were dull as hell. The look on his face when he speaks is ridiculous and the way he tries to use a microphone to get himself over is laughable.

 

As for his poor look that I mentioned please explain to me how a very small guy with goofy teeth and a bald head cannot look awful?

 

ECW had a habit of making people, even RVD and Lynn, look better than they actually were. Perhaps when Power Slam put him at number 20 they bought into that, like so many other people.

 

If you genuinely expect me to believe that Credible was the 20th best wrestler of 2000 then you're surely joking?

 

He was a pointless signing for WWE. Their officials may have thought differently, but were proved wrong when they ended up getting rid of him after realising he was a worthless addition to a very talented roster. Paul Heyman may have thought differently but in ECW he had to push less talented guys and try and make them big stars. In those days Heyman could get anyone over. As for the ECW fans by the time Credible was World Champion ECW crowd were dead. Judging by the 2000 shows they couldn't have cared less who won or lost matches. In the same way that Scott Steinre was nowhere near as over as people thought he was when WCW was dieing, it's the same for Justin Credible in ECW. People forget that being the most over wrestler (which he wasn't) in a small promotion that is losing fans and money all the time, equates to basically nothing compared to the WWE. Did anyone in WWE know who he was, or care who he was? He was just that little bald guy who mildly resembled this crap old jobber who wore a mask called Aldo Montoya.

Edited by Jayden
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How successful has anyone from ECW been once they left the company and left Heyman's creative?

 

I think thats more to do with McMahon's reluctance to push anyone who wasn't created by him, (Big Show excepted). Even Goldberg was only over for a short time. If you look at the list of former ECW/WCW talent that have been either buried or forgotten once reaching WWE, it's scary at the talent being wasted. Storm, Dreamer, Lynn, Credible, Raven, Taz(z), Rhyno, Tajiri, DDP, Kanyon, I could go on. But the one that sticks in my craw the most is Mike Awesome. A guy that big and agile, a man who took tables to another level, and Vince f**ked it up. IMO Vince just hates World champs from other companies. I believe thats why RVD still is in a good position in the company.

 

Ok rant over.

 

lol HDC

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I disagree, sure Vince prefers to push guys created in house but I just think that those guys weren't as talented as Heyman made them look in ECW.

 

Crediblre wasn't wasted by WWE, he wasn't needed by WWE. Taz was a stiff little midget. Did you really think the megastars that the WWE had on their roster were gonna wanna get chucked around by a little troll? Jerry Lynn is a poor man's Benoit. Can't talk, crap look, and not as good in the ring as Benoit. As for DDP by the time he got to the WWE he just wasn't a big star anymore. If they'd signed him in 97-98 then he'd have been awesome, but then no chance. Tajiri. How much do you expect him to get pushed? He's been a tag team champion, is that not enough? What more do you want for him? He's a cruiserweight, he isn't ever gonna main event and nor should he. Tommy Dreamer got about as much of a push as he warranted. He wasn't a great worker, his style didn't fit in in the WWE, he doesn't have a great look and he's an average talker. The push he got was about as much as could be expected.

 

My point is most of those guys looked very good in ECW, where Heyman could even make the least talented of people (Public Enemey, New Jack) look like they were some sort of superstar.

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Just my opinion, Bub. I still believe that Vince wastes talent for no good reason. I think thats one of the reasons A.J. Styles knocked back a deal, not just the moving and the money, but the fact that WWE wouldn't exploit him to the best of his abilities, look at Ultimo Dragon and Paul London for example. We can just agree to disagree.

 

Place would be boring if we all agreed on things anyhoo. :xyx

Edited by DC
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indeed it would. exactly what do you expect him to do with someone like AJ Styles though? AJ's tiny, when Russo was managing him you had a World Champion stood next to a non wrestler who was twice the size of him. Looked ridiculous. Styles knew what was good for him, plus people forget exactly what he knocked back. He was only offered a developmental deal.

 

Paul London has been a tag champ, he's only been there five minutes, what do you want them to do with him? It just makes me laugh when people go on about people like Rey, London, Tajiri not getting pushed hard enough when they've all worn gold and been in some fairly large matches. No, they won't ever main event ppv's, nor should they.

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Jayden you seem to be under the impression that Heyman is a wrestling coach or something, cause hey its fine to criticise Justin Credible, but he's the one working in the ring, and not Heyman.

 

To start with Heyman gave Credible the ECW title in what April 2000? They went out of business in what March 2001? Thus at the time, they weren't going out of business.

 

It's fine to say that once people leave Heyman they don't do as well, but heck you're talking about one of the most creative people in wrestling ever. That's like saying Edu (who's an alright player) would still do awesome at like Barcelona. Heyman pushed Credible, and he had good matches, did well for the title, and obviously impressed some people. To say Heyman did everything for him, is like saying players in a football team have nothing to do with their success, its just the manager.

 

And ok matches? They were a lot better than ok, in fact pretty good, and nie on every wrestling fan or writer would agree with that. Sure Jerry Lynn and Storm great workers, but it takes 2 to tango. And remember he worked with Sabu, when Sabu was on his way down into the broken mess he is today. And as for his matches being booked badly? Dreamer probably booked their match, and they were ok at worst.

 

And if you wanna talk about stuff Heyman did, who else do you think gave him his catchphrase and made him say it?

 

And you said everyone in ECW was made to look better than they actually were. Ok with The Gangstas and say Public Enemy true, they played to their weaknesses. But with guys like Lynn, Storm, Credible the reason they did well was cause they got given time. 20 mins on PPV to sell a real story, a real feud. Heck if you gave Chris Benoit a 3 minute match on Raw, it's not gonna be fantastic, so why should it be for them guys. They did well, and reached their expectations because they were given proper time, and not because they seemed better. That's just a very wish washy excuse.

 

And sure yeh he probably was a pointless signing, but jeez for how many guys can we say that about. Ultimo Dragon was a pointless signing, does that mean he's a lousy worker who's too small? I didn't think so.

 

And ECW in 2000 did fine. The buyrates and attendance were ok, so were you get this crowds didn't care, and they were dying stuff is beyond me. You have to realise ECW, a very small company were trying to compete on PPV and TV with huge companies in WCW, and WWF. And with their best talent always getting raided, there was never gonna be a different outcome, regardless of crowds or buyrates.

 

You say ECW were losing money and fans. Wrong, losing money yes, losing fans no. They had a steady fanbase, and similar buyrates as when they first did PPV in 1997. But when you branch out to doing major network TV shows, Computer games, improved production and wages, with big roster members getting stolen by bigger companies, you know you're gonna struggle financially, and thus that's why they died.

 

And you forget nearly anyone anywhere else who did well, can mean nothing in WWE. Ultimo Dragon, huge in Japan, DDP headlined WCW PPV's, doesn't really matter what you did before, it's how they push you when they get you into their promotion.

 

Remember there are positives and negatives for both. Can't be as black and white, as one sides as you make out. Heck I'm not his biggest fan, but come on lets face facts, instead of incredibly one sides assault on him.

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Jayden you seem to be under the impression that Heyman is a wrestling coach or something, cause hey its fine to criticise Justin Credible, but he's the one working in the ring, and not Heyman.

yes he was, and what he was doing in that ring was nothing special, it was the way he was booked and pushed that got him over. Not the way that he wrestled.

 

To start with Heyman gave Credible the ECW title in what April 2000? They went out of business in what March 2001? Thus at the time, they weren't going out of business.

so you think that when the company went out of business just 11 months later the signs that they were on their way out hadn't set in? do you think that all of a sudden in february 2001 they suddently went "oh dear, what a screwup, we're out of business in a month and we've done nothing about it, whoops". They were panic booking putting the belt on him, and continued to panic ever since. Hell, Tommy Dreamer's gimmick was all about never quite reachin the top and winning the world title, and they blew that all off by giving him the belt, only for him to lose it like 10 minutes later??? Panic booking.

 

It's fine to say that once people leave Heyman they don't do as well, but heck you're talking about one of the most creative people in wrestling ever. That's like saying Edu (who's an alright player) would still do awesome at like Barcelona. Heyman pushed Credible, and he had good matches, did well for the title, and obviously impressed some people. To say Heyman did everything for him, is like saying players in a football team have nothing to do with their success, its just the manager.

first off wrestling hardly works like football at all, does it. it's much easier to paper over weaknesses in wrestling. for instance if someone has a bum knee they can just wrestle a career where the style of their matche compensates for that. Look how many wrestlers leave American football because they have injuries which stop them competing, yet can still fulfill a career as a pro wrestler. Heyman covered his weaknesses, his opponents covered his weaknesses. He was/is a very very average wrestler, I think he made a horrible world champion and he was never that over, in fact, nobody was at that point in ECW except RVD, and eventually Rhyno.

 

And ok matches? They were a lot better than ok, in fact pretty good, and nie on every wrestling fan or writer would agree with that. Sure Jerry Lynn and Storm great workers, but it takes 2 to tango. And remember he worked with Sabu, when Sabu was on his way down into the broken mess he is today. And as for his matches being booked badly? Dreamer probably booked their match, and they were ok at worst.

I doubt Dreamer booked the storylines behind his match with Credible. I doubt Dreamer said "yeah have me win the world title, and then have Credible come win it off me like 5 minutes later". Dreamer may have called much of the match, but I don't think he would have booked the storyline. Hell, doesn't matter who did, it was rushed and like everything else they did at that point was full of a promotion pannicking on its way down. Lynn and Storm rarely have bad matches with anyone and neither Lynn, or Storm's matches involving Credible were their best ones.

 

And if you wanna talk about stuff Heyman did, who else do you think gave him his catchphrase and made him say it?

He may well have done, doesn't make it suck any less. Great workers take crap gimmicks and tag lines and get over with them anyway. I don't care who told Credible to say it, he doesn't know how to talk and make it work. His facial expression and tone is awful, he is dull and uninteresting on the mic.

 

And you said everyone in ECW was made to look better than they actually were. Ok with The Gangstas and say Public Enemy true, they played to their weaknesses. But with guys like Lynn, Storm, Credible the reason they did well was cause they got given time. 20 mins on PPV to sell a real story, a real feud. Heck if you gave Chris Benoit a 3 minute match on Raw, it's not gonna be fantastic, so why should it be for them guys. They did well, and reached their expectations because they were given proper time, and not because they seemed better. That's just a very wish washy excuse.

you have to take things into context. The whole point of all of this is that Credible was a pointless signing for WWE and no use to them whatsoever. Did they waste Jerry Lynn? Probably, could they have done more with Storm? Sure. But ECW was a smalltime promotion. They looked better than they really were because they were surrounded by something nowhere near the professional quality that WWE is and has been. ECW made small guys looks normal, made reasonable sized guys look like monsters. Credible would never get a 20 minute match in WWE, nor would he deserve one. There are much better main event talents there to get that sort of timescale for a match.

 

And sure yeh he probably was a pointless signing, but jeez for how many guys can we say that about. Ultimo Dragon was a pointless signing, does that mean he's a lousy worker who's too small? I didn't think so

No but then I wouldn't have said that Dragon was a lousy worker. He was a pointless signing because he wasn't suited to WWE and was never gonna be used properly. Credible was a pointless signing because he's average as hell. Credible was used about right, they didn't get much wrong with him, he just wasn't good enough.

 

And ECW in 2000 did fine. The buyrates and attendance were ok, so were you get this crowds didn't care, and they were dying stuff is beyond me. You have to realise ECW, a very small company were trying to compete on PPV and TV with huge companies in WCW, and WWF. And with their best talent always getting raided, there was never gonna be a different outcome, regardless of crowds or buyrates

watch the 2000 ppv's and listen to the crowd's reactions. For the most part in 2000 they couldn't care less. Jerry Lynn won the World title in his hometown, something which should have sent them nuts and they were silent as hell. I wasn't talking about buy rates or attendances. I do realise ECW is a very small time promotion, that's my whole point. Standing out in a smalltime promotion doesn't mean you're any good, it just makes you a bit better than those other smalltime guys. Personally I don't think Credible was any bteter than those other smalltime guys, he just got the push.

 

You say ECW were losing money and fans. Wrong, losing money yes, losing fans no. They had a steady fanbase, and similar buyrates as when they first did PPV in 1997. But when you branch out to doing major network TV shows, Computer games, improved production and wages, with big roster members getting stolen by bigger companies, you know you're gonna struggle financially, and thus that's why they died.

losing fans yes. You can't compare their first ppv back in 97, when they were a smaller promotion, to their final ones when they were supposed to have grown and got bigger. By the end they were losing fans and how you can argue they weren't is beyond me. They may have had the same number of fans in 2000 as they had in 97 but that's the problem. They had grown, and then started receeding again. If they had gone to the same level they were already at, three years on then that doesn't indicate they've not been losing fans and haven't been able to grow. Exactly how much talent got raided incidentally? Douglas was done anyway and looked out of shape by the time he left, Awesome was a blow, and Taz. Who else exactly? Come on, they had always had to deal with guys leaving and they had always done it. by 2000 they weren't capable of doing it anymore. They'd had their run and it was over.

 

And you forget nearly anyone anywhere else who did well, can mean nothing in WWE. Ultimo Dragon, huge in Japan, DDP headlined WCW PPV's, doesn't really matter what you did before, it's how they push you when they get you into their promotion.

Again, that's half my point. ECW's style was different to WWE's. You could survive without being a polished all rounder. In WWE that's much harder. As for Dragon, Japanese style is so different, and you're talking about a guy who can't talk etc, taht just struggles to work in WWE. As for DDP he got to WWE once he was spent. If he'd been there in 97 he'd have been a big star but you're talking about a guy who joined WWE when his best days were behind him and he wasn't over anymore. Not the best of examples. A guy in a mask who can't talk and a washed up guy not much younger than 50? You say that it's all about the push? Credible got more tv time, more of a push than Lynn, when Lynn was five times as taltned. Credible got pushed just fine, he just wasn't good enough.

 

It's not a one sided assault on him but I don't buy into the idea that most fans have that anything ECW was great. The fact is most of their roster over the years just weren't ever good enough for the big time and it's probably half the reason that for the most part ECW kept its big stars instead of having them raided like you keep mentioning.

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I think your missing the point. It may have been panic booking yeah, but he still kept the belt for 6 months after that, so I don't think you can have 6 months of panic booking. I'd say he's better than average, just on judge of the matches he's had. Don't care who he worked with, you still have to hold your own. And plus you say nobody in ECW was really truly over, except RVD or Rhyno. Well if thats true, and ure Heyman what do you do? Push nobody? You have to push someone and see how it goes. Credible wasn't a huge success nor was he a huge failure. Heck u think Bradshaw was super over, and that earned him a push?

 

And the great workers take crap gimmicks and become great still thing is rubbish. Remember Super Liger? The Ringmaster? Mr J.L? So called very good or excellent workers with lousy gimmicks. Didn't set the world on fire did they?

 

Plus I meant Dreamer booking the match, not the feud.

 

Right next, say what you want about Credible being an average worker yada yada, there are millions who'd disagree, but the stuff about not being good enough? That's rubbish. He barely got a chance. Being saddled with a phoning it in X-Pac and A-Train, with the worst theme in history, ain't a proper chance. Give me one proper feud he had a chance with? Any time in any matches? You can't because he didn't get any.

 

There was no way Credible was used right, he didn't even get a decent chance, heck history shows that. And if you still say its cause he's not good enough, then please explain Bradshaw, Sylvain Grenier, Mark Henry, A-Train etc, and how they got numerous pushes.

 

And you make 2000 out to be so much worse than it was, as if the crowd were deftly silent throughout, which was never true. Jerry Lynn won the world title in his hometown and they don't go nuts? He's not Jesse Venture, why would they go nuts? Don't hear everyone in Minneapolis go nuts for X-Pac do you?

 

And again your missing the point. They did gain fans between 1997 and 2000, they weren't losing fans. Buyrates were still around the same as 97. (Plus remember as the years went on they got put out on more PPV providers, so them being the same, means actually more were buying on percentage terms). You forget the money they put into the computer game, the TV deal, the improved production etc, then the money they lost when WWF got TNN and they got dropped. It wasn't a case of their run was over. Look in 2000 they were putting out better matches on you average PPV then most WWE PPV's do now, it's just they simply couldn't afford the mounting costs of trying to compete with WCW and WWF. Of course fans come and go, but they weren't losing loads which caused them to go bust like your insinuating.

 

You seem to be thinking I think Credible should have been topline for some reason, when I think he should have just got a chance at being a lower mid carder.

 

I'm sorry but there ain't no way Credible's push was fine. Name me 1 singles match he ever had on Raw or SD. Lynn had a couple on SD and Raw if I'm not mistaken. Both their pushes were lousy. I mean if they can get Gene Snitsky over through booking I'm sure they cud with Lynn and Credible, and if you wanna say about look, then hey The Hurricane is smaller than Credible, who says Credible with a gimmick and a push wouldn't get over?

 

And for ECW stars who got raided and moved somewhere else. Raven, The Sandman, Perry Saturn, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Rey Misterio Jr, Psicosis, Shane Douglas, Sabu, Stevie Richards, Taz, Mick Foley, Bam Bam Bigelow, Lance Storm, Mike Awesome, The Dudleys to name a few, were all signed by WWF or WCW after their work for ECW. Think that's enough.

 

ECW wasn't great all the time, but hey nothing is, certainly not WCW or WWE either.

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the majority of those guys you mentioned had gone before 97 had even begun, hardly a factor once you get to justin credible time. hurricane is smaller than credible, but more talented and looks better. i don't think credible should have got a chance at being a lower mid carder, you say he was never given a feud, lower midcarders rarely are. he was part of that crap stable, and that's about as much as his talent warranted, in my opinion. personally when i watched ecw in 2000 i saw dead crowds, obviously you didn't and that's fine but i did. i saw crowds that weren't making a lot of noise. plus you have to remember how much smaller it is. being over with that niche market doesn't make you over outside of it.

 

we're just arguing that same points over and over now so i'd say the debate is pretty much dead. i disagree, you disagree, but we're just arguing the same points so I'd just leave it that I think Justin Credible's worthless and over rated, and you think he's fairly talented and wasn't given enough of a chance.

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