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England v Wales-3 days away.


Kakarot
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England v Wales-2 days away.

 

Seeng as how the majority of regulars on this site are either Welsh or English. Its time for a bit of discussion on the big match I reckon. Who's going to win? Who's going to play their heart out and who's going to crumble under the pressure. Will Manu Giggs or Wales Giggs show up? (It's at Old Trafford so it could go either way.)

Will Giggs and Owen get tired playing for both countries at the same time?What time do you clock Bellamy pulling up injured? And if England are losing, how many minutes of injury time will be added (round of to the nearest ten)

 

Discuss.

 

This posted has been edited because it contained words that I've had complaints about in the past, which were used to describe people from other nations. Please be a bit more sensitive in the future.

Edited by Kakarot
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At the Millenium stadium I think you have a chance of getting a draw, or even beating us. In England we'd have to do pretty badly not to get the win. You've started poorly, when you desperately needed to get off to a flyer, you've got potentially your most influential player Robbie Savage out of the game (don't try and tell me Giggs or Hartson are because Savage is the soul of that team). Bellamy can cause problems but we should be able to cope at the back for pace.

 

The only thing on Wales side is the fact that Owen looks set to play. What with him being crap and all. How he got into the 35 nominations for World Player of the year is beyond me.

 

But, we'll win, or we'll outplay you and perhaps give you a lucky draw. I just can't see us losing at home againts you. As I said, away, in front of 70000 screaming Welsh fans, maybe, but in Manchester, no way. We're better than you on paper, we're better than you in terms of performances, and we're at home.

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I think you'll find that any Welshman will tell you that Ryan Giggs is the main man for Wales.

 

It's no coincidence that the two games that he has been missing from we have not won, but when he is in the side we have gone out and beaten Italy at home and Germany away.

 

And I see Jayden has succombed to the "Michael Owen is Crap" bandwagon already.

 

Michael Owen is an amazing player and Danny Gabbidon, rest assured, is cacking himself at the prospect of marking him.

 

Cheers!

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no I've not succumbed to any bandwagon, I've been saying for the best part of two years that he's not been performing and it's fact, not opinion. Like him or not, he has underachieved and underperformed for a long time now. Sven's persistence in not dropping him doesn't help the situation either. he knows he'll keep his place even when he's crap.

 

How can you look at performances and see anythin good? He might leave Real MAdrid because he's on the bench too much? what did he expect, they have morientes, raul and ronaldo.

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For a guy who has - despite doing "nothing" in international football for years - maintained a 1 goal in 2 matches record, I think he's been pretty good.

 

What do you expect, a goal a game? Sir Bobby Charlton didn't get a goal a game, Shearer didn't, Hurst didn't, Lineker didn't.

 

Cheers!

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no i expect some decent performances. he looks lightweight, lacking in pace, poor on the ball, and his finishing looks average.

 

he is not on form as opposed to some of our other strikers who are. watch him play, don't look at stats about goals scored. i could care less about stats. watch his performances and try and justify his place in the england team. any side that has a half decent defence shuts him out of the game completely. he was poor going into the euro's, and poor in the euro's, now he's not getting a game for Madrid, and the few times he has come on, or played I've watched him look pretty crap.

 

If he plays well, I'll sing his praises but I won't keep defending him because he was once playing well.

 

I think you'll find that any Welshman will tell you that Ryan Giggs is the main man for Wales.

I may not be Welsh but I watched most of their qualifying games for the Euro's and Savage looked like their most influential player by a country mile. Certainly more so than Mr Giggs.

Edited by Jayden
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If Wales play how they did against Northern Ireland then England will win by 2 or 3 goals, maybe more. Of course it's England we're talking about and they always seem to make things more difficult than they should be for themselves.

 

As a Northern Ireland fan (I'm a Scotland fan as well so those who think we totally hate England may be surprised and disappointed by this but.....) I hope England win as we've certainly no hope of coming above them and while we probably don't have too much chance of coming above Wales, it is a possibility.

 

I think we might struggle though at the weekend as we've had an amazing amount of people drop out of the squad, which is manageable for a big country like England or France but not so great for us. Anyway, I've went off topic a bit.

 

I'm expecting a big effort from Wales but the England players will also be up for it and should win the game.

Edited by The Crippler
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It's been said, but if Wales play like they did against Northern Ireland and Azerbaijan, they're screwed. I don't think it'll be a lambs-to-the-slaughter situation, but England should definitely win. If they don't, I wouldn't like to be in Sven's shoes the following day . . . . .

 

Wales aren't a bad side at all normally, but the absence of Savage (indeed an influential player), coupled with the loss of their manager and the fact that they're playing away from home should be too much for them. England can hurt you from so many places, and Wales haven't exactly got a Giggs or a Bellamy playing at the back.

 

On the subject of Owen - I do think it's fair to say that he hasn't played his best over the past two seasons. He's a confidence player - the worse his confidence gets, the worse he'll play. That may seem like a blatant truism for all strikers, but Owen is not the type of player who'll score a bagful even when his confidence is low. He's also had some injury lay-offs over the past couple of years which have affected him. And while I said to myself "Good luck to Madrid keeping him fit and confident" when he left, I'd have him back at Anfield in a second.

 

He didn't do too well at Euro 2004, granted; but that was no doubt affected by the fact that England could hardly string two passes together at times. He still popped up against Portugal with a world-class finish. Owen is world-class and could score a hat-trick against anyone in the world out of the blue. I honestly don't think any other English striker is a better alternative. Defoe maybe.

 

Let me just fit in at the end here about Ireland vs France (it doesn't really seem appropriate starting a thread on it since there's few enough Irish on the site) - there could be a major scalp taken on Saturday evening in Saint-Denis. The Irish are going in with a fully-fit team, including both Keanes and Duff, who showed he's in-form against Liverpool on Sunday. France are without Viera (sent off stupidly against the Faroe Isles) and Zidane (retired). As long as we don't get burned by Henry's pace (and Israel didn't) and Kerr allows the guys to play (which he didn't against the Swiss) we could be leaving with the three points. Hopefully one anyway :)

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I'd like to see Defoe giben the chance, he's the future, Owens past it at the grand old age of 24 (i think). Owens game has always been mainly about pace, he's never had much else going for him. His finishing ability is good (as demonstrated against Portugal) but as he's lost a lot of the pace he used to have he struggles to make things happen for himself. Defoe has started the season flying, he scored in the last game, whats Owen done this season, sat on his arse at Madrid.

 

As for the game itself, we shouldn't be too confident, Wales will be right up for it and certainly have the talent to beat us on their day even if they can't match us man for man.

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Savage may be the most committed player, but Giggs is by far - BY FAR - the most influential. Giggs is a class apart from Savage in reputation, talent, pace, value, awards and career highlights. Giggs is in another time zone, another galaxy, another dimension.

 

Savage, despite being one of Wales' most hard-working players, is good at best. Gabbidon, Delaney, Koumas, Bellamy and Earnshaw are better than him.

 

And don't forget about Ramon Caliste, the 18 years old "Welsh Rooney", currently whupping ass in the Man Utd youth team.

 

And K.J, lol, Owen is certainly not past it at the age of 24. Toot! Toot! All aboard the "Owen's past it" bandwagon!

 

Cheers!

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Savage may be the most committed player, but Giggs is by far - BY FAR - the most influential. Giggs is a class apart from Savage in reputation, talent, pace, value, awards and career highlights. Giggs is in another time zone, another galaxy, another dimension.

so why does he always suck for Wales, while Savage is giving the team some energy and working his ass off? Half the time you barely know giggs is playing in the Wales games.

 

Savage, despite being one of Wales' most hard-working players, is good at best. Gabbidon, Delaney, Koumas, Bellamy and Earnshaw are better than him.

Savage may be good at best but unless you've not noticed you don't have anyone else who is any better than "good" either. Gabbidon is nowhere near as good or influential as Savage, that's just laughable. He's a reasonable defender who's not good enough to play in the Premiership yet.

 

Have you ever watched football Boyo or do you just read about it in some local Welsh newspaper?

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How can anyone argue that Giggs is not the most influential player Wales has?

 

Ray Parlour was always a committed workhorse for Arsenal but it is Thierry Henry who was the best player and the most influential. Robbie Savage is on a par with Ray Parlour and Ryan Giggs is - well, he's no longer on a par with Henry, but maybe Pires, and Pires is soooo much more influential than Parlour.

 

It all depends on how you define "influence" though. If you define influence by "the hardest working whose effort inspires everyone" then fair enough. But if you define influence as "the most gifted whose talent inspires everyone" then that's a different story.

 

Ray Parlour was never the most influential at Arsenal, but Pires/Henry always have been. It's the talent vs effort debate and like any football fan, as much as they appreciate the effort, they pay to watch the talent.

 

Savage is up there, but Giggs, Bellamy, Koumas, Speed and not forgetting Simon Davies - are all on a par or more influential than Savage. Talent-wise anyway.

 

Cheers!

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Have you ever watched football Boyo or do you just read about it in some local Welsh newspaper?

Well seeing this snide little remark came from the very person who said:

he looks lightweight' date=' lacking in pace, poor on the ball, and his finishing looks average.[/quote']

about Michael Owen I know I can take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

 

Cheers!

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I think Parlour is a bad example to be honest. A better one would be Roy Keane. There are have been more gifted players than him at Manchester United but he has had the biggest influence on that team and they've looked a much worse side without him.

I don't think so. Despite some players like Cantona, Giggs and arguably Beckham clearly having infinitely more talent than Roy Keane it has to be said that Keane is still a superb player. He has touch, grit, agression, a quite majestic range of passing and supreme reading of the game.

 

Roy Keane is another player who is/was in another dimension to Robbie Savage. Ray Parlour is much closer to Savage's standard so the comparison is fairer.

 

Cheers!

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You have a valid point but at the same time Arsenal are much better than Wales so whilst Parlour might be of a similar stature as Savage, he is obviously not going to have the same influence at Arsenal as Savage has on Wales when at Arsenal they had the likes of Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Henry, Pires, Vieira, Silva - all players who performed consistently well making them both gifted and influential.

 

I don't think you can say the same about Giggs and Wales as whilst he is gifted, he hasn't performed consistently enough for them to be regarded as a massive influence.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, Ive added that last paragraph or so as the first time round I wasn't happy with what I said. Sorry if you've read it before I changed it I'm still not sure if I've worded it in the best possible way but it will do :)

Edited by The Crippler
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Sorry, I'll have another go at this. I'm not going to go back and edit that last post again because people might have already read it and then missed what I was trying to say. Damn me and my inability to articulate!

 

Anyway, I'll give this another go. Why I think comparing Robbie Savage's influence on Wales with Roy Keane's to Manchester United is better than comparing Savage's influence on Wales with Parlour's on Arsenal.

 

Firstly, yes I agree Keane is better than Savage. Savage is quite a few notches down from Keane. But then Wales are a few notches down from Manchester United. So you've got a player who isn't so good playing for a country who isn't as good as Manchester United. So it's actually fairly evened out.

 

Then look at Parlour and Savage. When Parlour was at Arsenal it is probably fair to say that he was of a similar quality as Savage. But then lets compare Wales and Arsenal.

 

I said it was fair to compare Savage and Keane because Savage is a fair few notches down from Keane and Wales are a fair few notches down from Manchester United.

 

With Parlour and Savage, this isn't the same. There is the gulf between club and country. Arsenal are a fair few notches up from Wales but there isn't a gulf between the players to even things up.

 

That's why I think in terms of influence it is better to compare Keane and Savage rather than Savage and Parlour.

 

Gah, I've failed again to say what I mean! Actually I think I have said what I mean, just not very well. I hope that made sense. I'm frustrated now. I've thought too much about this. I should go to bed and leave it at that.

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Yeah Crippler is obviously right. If you look at performances (which is the only thing that matter) Savage outperforms Giggs for Wales in most games.

 

If you watch England, even Vassell when he comes off the bench outperforms Michael Owen in most games.

 

Footballers get by on past reputations and name value far too much, something which you seem to buy into Boyo. That's fair enough, if that's how you want to see football but if a player's not playing well it shouldn't matter who he is, there are no excuses in football, no places to hide. Even the best players (which Owen and Giggs aren't) underperform.

 

Being influential to a side isn't just about the ammount of work you put in. Savage is hugely influential to wales. He is often the one player they can rely on to have a big game and to get the side going. Much like Keane at Man Utd. No, Savage isn't as good as Keane was (although right now he's abotu on a par with him) but he's just as important for Wales as Keane was for Utd.

 

the Parlour example was a horrible one. You're taking one of the worst players in a side, and comparing him to one of the best. Parlour was obviously never the most influential player in that Arsenal side. But then neither would Ryan Giggs be if you put him in an Arsenal shirt. Frankly I'm not even sure he'd get that many games in an Arsenal shirt on current form.

 

The Parlour comparison is not fairer at all. If we were talking about Robbi eSavage's influence on the Arsenal side then that would be great but we're not and there is no doubt that the Arsenal team is a lot better than Wales.

 

But then I expect you'd probably try and laughably suggest that Michael Owen is England's most influential player as well.

Edited by Jayden
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Im sure any Welsh fan will tell you that Giggs has never played as well for Wales than he used to play week in and out for Utd a few years ago. I don't know why, Im certainly not questioning his loyalty. But When Savage plays, you can see the hunger in his eyes He wants to be involved in everthing. Athough he plays like that for his club as well, so it's not just patriotism. The thing with Wales is that on paper, we aren't as bad as some people realise. I make it at least 7 players in our first team that play in the Premiership. (Im counting Hartson in this by the way) And on our day we've shown we can beat anyone. But our squad is paper thin. And the players coming in to replace the injured or suspended are just not good enough. To be honest the thing we've most got going for us is that Erikkson is still in charge. At least his most in-form players (Defoe,Cole, smith) probably wont be playing. I've also just heard that we have the same ref that sent of Savage against N.I. Prepare for some very strange descisions. Should be a cracker of a game.
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yeah see that's the thing with Wales, when they have everybody available to choose from they actually have a really good side. Throw in a couple of injuries and/or suspensions and very quickly they become a really average one. The depth of players available just isn't there. On their day, with all their top players on for they can be excellent (Italy 2-1) but in terms of consistently putting together performances throughout a qualifying campaign they probably just aren't quite good enough.
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Michael Owen is the current top goalscorer in the England side, of course he's one of the most influential.

 

He's not THE most influential, I'd give that to Beckham, but Owen is certainly top three. How can the star striker NOT be among the most influential player.

 

And what's this about "having no place to hide"? David Beckham could have been dropped for Real Madrid and rotting in the reserves but if England play Brazil anytime soon, he's straight on the teamsheet ahead of Wright-Phillips.

 

But why? Because he is a big time player, a proper talent, a massive influence, just like Ryan Giggs.

 

You, Jayden, still haven't answered my question though:

 

How do you define influence? Is it by talent or effort?

 

But you'll probably try to justify your point of view by pointing out that the Mirror thinks Michael Owen should be dropped.

 

Cheers!

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I'd play Defoe personally. I don't think Owen is a bad player, its just he needs to change his game, cause he's still using the same game he had when he was 18. When your 18, the world's your oysten, you've got no fear, and the defenders don't know what to expect. Its now 6 years later, and Owen is a regarded as a world class striker, except his game hasn't changed. Injuries have slowed him down, and defenders now how to play against him, and to get to his weaknesses. Someone like Defoe is still untested, and same with Rooney. We know what they could do, but not everything they could do. With Owen, its not that often throughout a game, he'll be different than usual. Sure he's a world class finisher, but you know what to expect. The same may happen to Rooney and Defoe, but not yet. The best players are the ones who change with the times, can adapt like Henry, Matthaus, Gullit, Maldini, Viera, Keane all who have a wild variety of how they play, depending on formation, opposition, pace of the game, etc.

 

If you ever wanna look at why Heskey was a disappointment at Pool, I'd say Owen was the problem. Again he's not a bad player, just needs to be able to adapt at the conditions, and different players. Sure if he gets a clear cut chance against Wales, odds on he'll score it, but I never really see Owen creating goals by himself, unlike Defoe and Rooney. Thus why I'd play Defoe.

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How do you define influence? Is it by talent or effort?

neither boyo, i define it by performance. performance is generally made up by a combination of the two things you mentioned. it would be naieve and small minded to rate anything on just one of those.

 

a talented player who puts in no effort, or a player who works his butt off and is crap are never going to stand out as anything special. a combination of the two things is what makes the greats in the game and makes players influential.

 

as far as Owen goes, as mentioned previously, his performances which have been poor are only half the problem. he doesn't add anything to the game of whoever he plays with.

 

Michael Owen is the current top goalscorer in the England side, of course he's one of the most influential.

he has scored more goals than any of the other strikers, but he has also played a lot more games. on current and recent games he's not scoring at all and Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard would be our top goalscorers.

Edited by Jayden
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Boyo, I'm not jumping aboard some anti Owen bandwagon, I've been saying it for sometime.

 

Owen may be the top goalscorer in the squad at the moment, but right now he's not at the top of his game and I certainly can't see him ever regaining the levels of performance he achieved between 1997 and 2002 because he's lost too much pace.

 

Fair enough he's the top scorer in the squad right now, congratulations to him for that, but right now he's not performing well enough to keep Jermaine Defoe out of the team. Bobby Charlton is the top England goalscorer of all time, doesn't mean to say he should be guaranteed a place in the starting line up.

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