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Stoned Cold
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Someone really needs to bring up the unhealthy relationship betweem USA and Israel. Israel is opressing the palistinians. A country that has no army to defend itself, people are constantly murdered by israeli soldiers and not to metion the occupation of palistinian land that israel has no right to hold. And yet no one does anything.

 

Bush, Blair and Sharon = all the same.

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I dont think I should be bothered argueing with this but I will. This is frankly a stupid arguement.

In the Gaza strip it is a Catch 22 situation. The Palestinians have suicide bombers who kill innocent childered, women, men, OAPs, so the Israelis retaliate obviously. The Israelis then kill innocent childered, women, men, OAPs, so the Palestines retaliate.

 

This all stated back in 1967 so how its Ariel Sharons fault I dont know. Maybe its the terrorists fault, just in case you havent thought of that.

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Yes but what about the illegal occupation. Dont you think that would piss the palistinians off? Isreali soldiers shoot and kill lots of palistinians everyday, the only thing you hear about is suicide bombings. As they dont have an army to fight an army, they use the only thing they have which is their bodies.

 

Rather than just labeling everyone as a terrorist, maybe you should think about the causes of peoples actions and try to understand. Palistianians are not being listened to and an ilegal occupation ny isreal is being surported by america. If an isreali tank blows up your house with all your family in it, would you not want revenge? Exactly what is your take on israel killing hundreds and hundreds of palistinians every week? Have you seen the pictures of Israeli soldiers using palistinian children as human shields?

 

Also it started way before 1967. Read the timeline on the bbc news website!!

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So what about Isreal trying to have peace talks every two weeks which are ended by another suicide bombing? Personally I think the Palestinians are lucky that there's any of them left. Isreal could just go in and kill them all in retaliation for blowing up innocent people.

 

Saying they have an illegal occupation is like the Argentinians saying we have an illegal occupation of the Falklands - it belongs to us, but they want it for themselves.

 

The only ending the Palestinians want is to see every Isreali dead or gone from Isreal. And that's not going to happen.

 

Ed

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Stoned Cold, well done sir, a truly magnificent yet utterly abhorrent one-sided argument.

 

The Jews are the most persecuted of all religious people the world over. Christians hate them, Muslims hate them and because they are still powerful people, despite their low numbers, they generally get bad press.

 

But as Bibby said, Israel is a catch 22 situation:

 

Many moons ago Israel was indeed Jewish land, that was until they were persecuted from it and they disspelled around Europe. They lived quite happily in Europe, only being attacked by Roman, Greek, Ottoman and Barbarian hordes until in the 1930's they were persecuted again, rounded up and executed systematically.

 

So some fled to America.

 

After WW2 was won, the allies had to put the remaining Jews in a place where they would be safe, because Europe was still very unsafe, so they gave them back a little arid strip of land where their homeland used to be, and renamed it Israel.

 

Of course, that meant uprooting people from their homes. So who is right? Do people who were forced to move out of their homes to accomodate a load of aliens have the right to blow up the Jews? Or do the Jews have the right to remove people who are living on their land after they have almost been made extinct?

 

So why does everyone hate the Jews anyway? It is mainly because of Judas Escariot; the Jew who betrayed Jesus. One man was a bit of a boner so his entire RACE have to suffer for eternity. Doesn't seem right.

 

Cheers!

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You are completely missing my point. Isreal is in a catch 22 situation but if that is an excuse to bomb families then you are wrong. How many isreali soldiers shoot dead innocent children for no reason. They sinper them while they are in their homes. 3 year olds with sniper bullet wounds in the head. You dont randomley shoot with a sniper gun, u pick a target, aim and fire. This generates hatred and u have more suicide bombings. Also with the united states showing bias support for israel, u have created resentment in the muslim world.

 

If everyone went back grabing land that was originaly theirs, u would have a very diffrent world. If the jews want the land they used to have, why stop there? Let the native americans have america, aboriguonies have australia etc.

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You are completely missing my point. Isreal is in a catch 22 situation but if that is an excuse to bomb families then you are wrong. How many isreali soldiers shoot dead innocent children for no reason. They sinper them while they are in their homes. 3 year olds with sniper bullet wounds in the head. You dont randomley shoot with a sniper gun' date=' u pick a target, aim and fire. This generates hatred and u have more suicide bombings.[/quote'] Yet its OK for Palestinians to kill innocent Israelis? :roll

 

Also with the united states showing bias support for israel' date=' u have created resentment in the muslim world.[/quote'] LOL are you suprised? People HATE Muslims all over the world. Not because America is biased but because some Muslims are perfectly happy to kill 1000s of innocent people.

 

If everyone went back grabing land that was originaly theirs' date=' u would have a very diffrent world. If the jews want the land they used to have, why stop there? Let the native americans have america, aboriguonies have australia etc.[/quote']I do agree with that in practise but the world is totally different to what is was when countries like you listed were taken over. With no NATO etc nothing could of stopped the countries from using force. No action would of been taken againgst them so why not?

 

The fact is Israel have right to that land. Its the same thing in principle as in India/Pakistan where they argue over land BUT it belongs to India.

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The Jews are the most persecuted of all religious people the world over. Christians hate them, Muslims hate them and because they are still powerful people, despite their low numbers, they generally get bad press.

Yo Boyo...

 

This is one of those rare instances where I find you to be WAAAAAAAAAAY wrong. Christians do not hate Jews, at least not real Christians. Contrary to what some people have said, Christians do not blame Jews, Romans, or Muslims for the crucifixion of Jesus.

 

I embrace those of the Jewish faith, as they serve the same God I do, the Great I Am, Jehovah God. No christian I know hates the Jews.

 

In order to avoid a long, drawn out barrage of criticism from those who are christian-haters here at TWO I will not elaborate on what the tenets of the christian faith teach on the crucifixion unless asked to.

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Yet its OK for Palestinians to kill innocent Israelis?

 

No, but dont ignore the plight of the palistinians.

 

LOL are you suprised? People HATE Muslims all over the world. Not because America is biased but because some Muslims are perfectly happy to kill 1000s of innocent people.

 

It sound like you have a problem with muslims. Some americans are quite happy to bomb innocent people all over the world. Use cluster bombs, remove goverments they dont agree with and impose western values that are not wanted in some countries.

 

I do agree with that in practise but the world is totally different to what is was when countries like you listed were taken over. With no NATO etc nothing could of stopped the countries from using force. No action would of been taken againgst them so why not?

 

The fact is Israel have right to that land. Its the same thing in principle as in India/Pakistan where they argue over land BUT it belongs to India.

 

So from what date would you say it is ok for countries to claim back land that was stolen from them?

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Yo Boyo...

 

This is one of those rare instances where I find you to be WAAAAAAAAAAY wrong. Christians do not hate Jews, at least not real Christians. Contrary to what some people have said, Christians do not blame Jews, Romans, or Muslims for the crucifixion of Jesus.

You're right there, MM, I should have written "some Christians". But as silly as it may sound there is clear worldly resentment to the fact that Judas Escariot was a Jew who betrayed Jesus.

 

*Some* Muslims also hate the Jews because of this because they also recognise the fact that Jesus Christ existed (he is mentioned in the Koran I am led to believe) and they respect Jesus, too. They just disagree that he was the son of God. They just believe he was a prophet, like Mohammed was.

 

Anyway, they also do not like the fact that Judas betrayed a prophet of God, not because the son of Jehovah was betrayed but because a prophet of Allah was betrayed.

 

Make no bones about it though, although I admit I was over-eager in my previous post, "what Judas did" has definitely left some ill-will.

 

Cheers!

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No' date=' but dont ignore the plight of the palistinians.[/quote']Im not but you seem to be extremely biased againgst Israelis/Americans

 

It sound like you have a problem with muslims. Some americans are quite happy to bomb innocent people all over the world. Use cluster bombs' date=' remove goverments they dont agree with and impose western values that are not wanted in some countries.[/quote']I have a problem with the fact Muslim terrorists would kill any of my family AND be praised for it. The fact is, when the West uses force, it usually is the right thing to do. And since when have the USA had such a impact in Israel?

 

So from what date would you say it is ok for countries to claim back land that was stolen from them?

Early 1900s. That is when countries became more peaceful so then.

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Im not but you seem to be extremely biased againgst Israelis/Americans

 

I have a problem with the fact Muslim terrorists would kill any of my family AND be praised for it. The fact is, when the West uses force, it usually is the right thing to do. And since when have the USA had such a impact in Israel?

 

 

Early 1900s. That is when countries became more peaceful so then.

 

 

So, how about giving back all the islands that usa has stolen to turn in to bases. I dont know if you saw the John pilger report last nite on ITV, it would distroy all your arguments. Im not bias agaist usa, it does so a lot of good, but when it pretends to be doing to good but rapes small nations, thats when i have a problem. Look at the bigger picture.

 

Also, i dont think anyone praises muslim terrorists. Who ever told you that has warped your views and mind.

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You're right there' date=' MM, I should have written "some Christians". But as silly as it may sound there is clear worldly resentment to the fact that Judas Escariot was a Jew who betrayed Jesus.[/quote']

 

Jesus was faithful to the Jewish faith from the day he came to Earth until the day He gave His life for us on Calvary's cross. He said more than once that He came, "not to abolish the law, but to fufill it". He was referring to the laws and prophecies of Judaism.

 

One of my favorite bumper stickers says, "My boss is a Jewish carpenter", and it's true.

 

As for Judas, he made a choice. The Lord will deal with him as He will deal with all of us in time.

 

But as always, me and you are cool my Brother. Have a great day. :xyx

Edited by MachoMat
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So, how about giving back all the islands that usa has stolen to turn in to bases. I dont know if you saw the John pilger report last nite on ITV, it would distroy all your arguments. Im not bias agaist usa, it does so a lot of good, but when it pretends to be doing to good but rapes small nations, thats when i have a problem. Look at the bigger picture.

 

Also, i dont think anyone praises muslim terrorists. Who ever told you that has warped your views and mind.

 

 

Whatever dude. I think you need to get a box of Reality Flakes and tkae a big ol' bite. It's so easy to get on the USA-Bashing bandwagon and criticize others.

 

If we, the common folk, actually knew as much as we pretend to, I think that all of us, including good-ol- patriotic American-Me, would have to modifiy our views. We don't know all the details that those at higher levels are privvy to. It's like sitting in your comfy chair at home and criticiaing the quarterback or team coach for making a decision youy disagree with. You don't know what they know or what their plan is, or why it runs as it does.

 

And the US doesn't RAPE other countries. In fact, we give away billions of dollars each year in aid to MANY countries, most of whom turn right around and spit on us while knifing us in the back.

 

"Oh my wonderful American brothers across the sea. I LOOOOOOOOVE you. May I have money?"

 

We give them the money.

 

"Infidel scum. Capatilist pig. DIE Uncle Sam. Die! Die! Die!"

 

But I'm not bitter. No. Not me. No sir. Bitter? Not here.

{A cloud of sarcasm begins to filter into the room like a thick fog that smells like a bad fart.}

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this isnt about Jews or Muslims or Christians. Its about people. People on both sides.

 

its true that Jews have been persecuted a lot in history and it is absolutely terrible and horrific and disgusting, as are suicide bombings and all types of terrorism in general.

 

But the fact is that Palestinians (Muslim and Christian)are being persecuted and oppressed at the moment.

Sharon has been proven to be responsible for war crimes. ie, murder of thousands of refugees in 1982, Sabra and Shatilla.

 

Gaza is a gigantic prison.If you want vivid proof of what is going on in Gaza daily, go to http://www.rafahtoday.org

It has photos and regular updates of events there, from a journalist who lives there. It shows what it is like to be a Palestinian.

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Also' date=' i dont think anyone praises muslim terrorists. Who ever told you that has warped your views and mind.[/quote']

 

Ater the 9/11 attacks BBC news showed people celebtrating it in some Middle Eastern country. After the 9/11 attacks again, the name Osama went up by over 20% in Britain. Coincidence? No.

 

I saw a programme on America and its political stance a few eeeks ago, and they are in so much debt in about 15-20 years they wont be able to afford to have such an impact on the world. No more helping other countries or aid any more then. Then the world will be a LOT worse.

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If the allies wanted to give the Jewish people a land where they can be safe and live freely, why didn't they give them a state in America?

 

Anyways, America "helping" other countries has lead to the current situation we find ourselves in, they gave weapons to Iraq and Iran to kill each other, this creates anti US feeling in both countries. America's role in Isreal has created huge anti US feeling in the middle east. This of course has lead to a few nutcases taking things to an extreme for what they believe. America has created the problems they are now experiencing, their constant "helping" in other countries affairs have lead to the Anti US attitude many now have.

 

When America can't make an impact on the world things will become safer, the UN and proposed EU Army will look after us, and with America unable to interfer in world affairs the Anti US feeling will slowly die out.

 

Or so the theory goes, personally I'd be more worried the Britain won't be able to support itself in 15 years time, but thats another topic for another day.

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I agree to an extent. America sold Iraq and Iran weapons when they werent as dangerous firstly. They sold them weapons when they were not allies but there wasnt a threat between the countries. I dont see how it should make "anti US feelings" at all. If America sell them weapons and they decide to kill each other I dont see how it is the US's fault at all.

I also disagree with the UN statement. Yes the UN is a good thing but whenyou havea country like North Korea who have Nuclear weapons and will use them, the UN wouldnt help the situation, because there is too much talk not enough action.

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I hate this debate for good reason. Not because I like to bury my head in the sad but basically because it is intertwined with religon, mythology and race as well as history and that is a dangerous mix.

 

I have studied the history of the middle east throught out my education and also as part of a hobby of mine as I enjoy history a great deal. Now the real problem was not caused in 1967 or 1947 oh no. The real problem was caused by the fall of the Ottoman empire after the Great War in 1918 and the British reaction to it.

 

After taking over the land as a peace keeping force under the peace treaty signed by the Allies with what is now Turkey it was the British and French troops job in the region of the middle east to try and work with the people towards a independent state. Now their was already plenty followers Jewishish faith there (not race, its a religon, not a race) in the area and they wanted a free Jewish state as laid out in the sacred texts of the Tora the Jewish holy scrolls.

 

But the original land of Palastine which had been their since the Roman times had since the era of 700AD or so been a mainly Muslim country in its faith. So there was cause for friction there. The British troops began to come under terrorist attacks from groups claiming the need for a new 'Isreal' to be born, all this before the second world war had begun. Because of this after the end of the second world war we pulled out and left a void of leadership in the area. Since 1918 the British had been caught up in attacks by the Isrealie forces seeking 'liberation' and this had continued throughout the war until 1945 and the withdrawl.

 

Palastine (it was still called it) was in uproar as bit by bit the British left and through quickness of thought, global empthy after the holocaust and sheer bloody mindness the Isrealie state was born illegally in 1947.

 

It required the sponsorship of a nation to become a fully fledged state and the USSR and the USA where falling over themselves to give ot them to look like Global protectors of the Jewish faith.

 

But what of the people that lived their, the actual majority and the people whose familys had lived there as far back as a 1000 years before? They where told they would be under a strictly Jewish rule with no say from their community leaders and respected pillars of the Muslim faith. So they rebelled as was generally the way in that part of the world at that time and the rest of the Arab nations followed.

 

This is why now Israel is so strict and paranoid and violent. Because at least 4 times in its short history its Arab neighbours have tried to invade and wipe it off the map. However the Irsaelies are just the same! They have commited war crimes on the Palastain people (the current Israelie PM sent an extreme christain assisian squad based in Syria and Syrian in origin into a Palastain camp in the 1980's and they led a widespread rape, murder and torture spree). They have invaded other peoples countries (Syria in 1981 and they still until last year kept illegal control of the Golan Heights) and they have also since the 1967 conflict broke double the number of UN resoultions that Saddam Hussian did in his entire time as leader of Iraq....

 

No one is truly to blame, there is no black and white but the fact is that the Israelies claim divine right to the land, that is the basis of their actual claim. I'm sorry but if you walked into any international court and claimed God has given you this land then it would not stand under international law not matterwhat it says in the Koran, Bible or Tora. It was the UN, the USA and Great Britains fault mostly in 1947 for not being stronger when dealing with a pack of terroists. Which is what they where then and its what the palistians are being forced to be now.

 

Oh and also half of Jeruslam by international law belongs to Palastine as well.

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If the allies wanted to give the Jewish people a land where they can be safe and live freely, why didn't they give them a state in America?

Anyways, America "helping" other countries has lead to the current situation we find ourselves in, they gave weapons to Iraq and Iran to kill each other, this creates anti US feeling in both countries. America's role in Isreal has created huge anti US feeling in the middle east. This of course has lead to a few nutcases taking things to an extreme for what they believe. America has created the problems they are now experiencing, their constant "helping" in other countries affairs have lead to the Anti US attitude many now have.

When America can't make an impact on the world things will become safer, the UN and proposed EU Army will look after us, and with America unable to interfer in world affairs the Anti US feeling will slowly die out.

Or so the theory goes, personally I'd be more worried the Britain won't be able to support itself in 15 years time, but thats another topic for another day.

 

I agree that the US gave arms to those other countries. I don't know all the facts and who did what.

 

But I do know that we have done many good things around the world. Why not list some of the good things we have done. What about the fact that we are one of the few nations that has stood by you and yours pretty faithfully.

 

As I stated above it usually runs like this...

 

"Oh my wonderful American brothers across the sea. I LOOOOOOOOVE you. May I have money?"

 

We give them the money.

 

"Infidel scum. Capatilist pig. DIE Uncle Sam. Die! Die! Die!"

 

They curse us and burn our flag and kill our citizens.

 

 

 

If someone were to fly a very larger plane through one of Britian's mose important commercial buildings, and another through an important governmental building, you'd get kinda pissed off too. So please, get off your high horse, realize that your view doesn't take in the entire landscape, only a small portion of the big picture, and think before you spout off.

 

The US has been a force for good in the world. We've made some bad calls, gotten our hands a little dirty, but so has any other powerful nation.

 

Remember the expansionalist policies of your own native land? They took MANY other countries by force, killing a LOT of innocent people, attempting to drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world as the British saw it at the time. So next time, why don't you think before you throw stones since you live in a glass house yourself kid?

 

I do not mean to start a US vs UK argument here but DAMN!!! Walshy, you know not of what you speak and it really makes me quite mad.

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Macho you gave money to the leaders of their countrys to prop them up to be useful allies to during the Cold War and to get oil.

 

Their leaders didn't give the people a dime

 

They are frightened of the West taking over their holy land and this fanned by fanatics who host rallies... the same went on in the middle east and in Pakistan about the Russian invasion of Afganistan and others in the SW Asian lands during the 1970's and 1980's...

 

Now because they are poor and under corrupt leadership which was funded however blindly by the US and British governments (thats right both of us) they blame us...

 

However as America is bigger and has more influence they pick on you more...

 

Plus the country which provides the most terrorists and killed the most Americans is Saudi Arabia, which you still fund...

 

Sad but true.

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Yo Gringo,

 

Not saying we're Snow White. The US has done some bad stuff. I openly admit that. I don't blindly and naively believe that we are blameless or hold any higher moral ground than others. It's just that it isn't right of Walshy and others to Uncle Sam hate, ya know?

 

We, the common folk, don't know all that goes on. We are not privvy to all the facts. Have you ever seen Men In Black? Tommy Lee Jones said it best, and I paraphrase, "There is always a Corillian Destroyer or intergalactic death ray or some other threat. It's our job to keep the rest of the world from having to deal with the knowledge of it.", or something like that. Haven't seen the movie in quite some time.

Edited by MachoMat
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You know, take this argument/discussion, add guns and bombs and we generally have the situation in the middle east.

 

The whole situation is based on "Yeah, but you did this to us" and tit for tat politics gets absolutely nowhere.

 

Macho, as much as I love the American people, they are always blinded by the patriotism, the US governments have done some absolutely attrocious things on the world arena then pulled the wool over the eyes of the American people, throwing the patriotism card in to keep them in line, you wonder why people unecessarily hate you as a nation, it isn't the nation, it is the government pretending to be the nation.

 

Plus we just don't like Bush, his attitude, his demeanour, I mean, he was always going to use the army at his disposal, it was like giving a 14 year old a playstation 2 and telling him not to use it!

 

I hope that kinda in someway explains that.

 

99% of people in this world want to live in peace, the other 1% are terrorists and Politicians!

 

Saracen

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It's just that it isn't right of Walshy and others to Uncle Sam hate, ya know?

 

Hey bro, like I have said to people before: as people the Americans are fantastic. As a country the words I want to use could get me banned from TWO!

 

I have met several Americans, both in person and on the net, and I cant fault a single one of you any more than I could any one else. But collectivly theres almost a sense of egotism and paranoia as far as any other country/culture goes.

I know that is a broard statement, and doesnt take everyone into account, but its fairly true! Thank God we (at least most of us) can see past the surface to the people behind the stereotype (something which the Irish are pleased about as well! ;) )!

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