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Illegal Moves


Boyo
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Hey,

 

Can you give me an answer to this little thing that's been bothering me for a couple of days? Imagine the scenario:

 

Tajiri vs Matt Hardy, great match, both wrestlers using their signature moves. Suddenly, Tajiri gets Hardy in the Tarantula, the ref starts counting to 5 for Tajiri to break the hold (as it's illegal). However, before the ref even reaches "4" (this is when most illegal moves are broken), Hardy screams in agony "I submit!".

 

Would the ref accept this submission?

 

Cheers!

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Hmmm... you can't accept a submission from an illegal move but if at any point a wrestler says he is in no condition to continue the referee can stop the match so it would be a catch 22... He couldn't continue but the problem was caused by an illegal move...

 

If it was a hardcore match however and hte ropebreak doesn't count like in ROH a couple of years back and Low Ki put Daniels I think in a tree of woe Dragon Clutch and he tapped... that'd count but under normal rules I'd say it was down to referee judgement.

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I don't think it'd count. It's kinda the same thing as maybe Y2J having HHH in the Walls of Jericho, HHH makes it to the ropes, ref tells Y2J to break the hold but he won't (cos he hates HHH so very very much), HHH starts tapping, but it doesn't count cos he's in the ropes.

 

Jericho eventually loses clean to a pedigree, by the way.

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Just to add some further arguments to this:

 

1. You say: "It doesn't count as it is an illegal move" - I say: "But the guy submitted."

2. You say: "The guy gave up, match is over" - I say: "But it was an illegal move."

 

Clever, huh? :D Lastly, two finer points, based on technicalities and legal loopholes:

 

3. When does a move actually become illegal? For example, Kane starts blatantly choking someone out, the ref starts counting to five. Is the move illegal from the moment the ref starts counting, or only once he's reached "five", because it's only when he reaches "five" does he actually disqualify you for using an illegal move?

 

4. Think about this: The Tarantula MUST be a "legal" move only until the ref reaches the "5 count", only then does it become illegal because the ref disqualifies you.

 

Consider the chair-shot - you get disqualified IMMEDIATELY for using that move, no five counts there. Thus, the chair-shot is illegal immediately and the Tarantula is only illegal after a five count. Therefore if Hardy screams "I submit" two counts into a Tarantula, the ref MUST accept it, right?

 

What if it was a tag-team match: Hardy Boyz vs Tajiri and HHH. Tajiri has Matt in the Tarantula, at the ref's "two count" Jeff smashes a chair into Tajiri to break the hold, and the ref sees it. Who wins the match? Is it a double DQ? Are the Hardyz DQ'd only?

 

Personally, I just don't know.

 

I'm not saying either/or, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of an argument. I'm fussy like that. :D

 

Cheers!

Edited by Boyo
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Well in that case Jeff would be DQ'd as its an immediate DQ offence under standard rules...

 

But in the way you phrase it Boyo I would have to say that if he quits before the ref reaches 5 then should be no reason why it couldn't count... but then again its illegal anyway and the referee gives 5 seconds to break the hold but it still illegal during the 5 seconds... its only a DQ offence if you don't let go after 5...

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So Gringo:

 

Would that mean that a 4-seconds-long Tarantula is an "illegal but unpunished/unpunishable" move?

 

And that a Tarantula lasting 5 seconds or more is "illegal and punished by DQ"?

 

The way you're putting it: an illegal move is an illegal move is an illegal move, but only after 5 seconds can you be DQ'd. So if you hold the move for 4 seconds or less then you enter some sort of "Wrestling Law Limbo", an anarchic 4 seconds long period where you can break the law/rules, and not get punished? :D

 

Theorectically (not by your example, btw...) Tajiri can get Matt Hardy in 4-seconds-long Tarantula after 4-seconds-long Tarantula, a limitless amount of times in their match, time after time, and Hardy can scream in total agony "I submit", but as the Tarantula is an illegal move, the ref CANNOT accept Hardy's submission as he is not being made to submit in a valid way.

 

The only thing the ref can do in that situation is stop the match when it's clear Hardy cannot carry on, therefore throwing in the towel. However he CANNOT punish Tajiri for repeatedly breaking the rules as he never once made it to the stage where it was actually possible to DQ him?

 

Tajiri was constantly in the limbo I mentioned?

 

Is there anyone super-brained in the laws of pro-wrestling that can help us out on this one?

 

Cheers!

Edited by Boyo
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No its just that way... Tajiri can keep putting him in the Tarantula but its probable that the ref will DQ him for persistant rule breaking...

 

It also depends on the federation and the country... In the FWA they be yellow carded and then DQ'd if they did it twice... Japan the ref would grab him and break it by force but unless outside interferance happens or you attack the ref you don't really get DQ'd...

 

But it is possible the ref would throw the towel in for Matt for a TKO (techinal knock out) and also just accept his submission... its all down to interpretation I'm afriad...

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Yeah, I think you're right: Refs Interpretation.

 

I think it is more likely the ref would just throw in the towel because by his own 5-count ruling Tajiri cannot be punished for persistant rule-breaking because 1/ The ref is giving Tajiri 5 seconds to stop breaking the rules (which Tajiri is doing each time) and 2/ WWE refs wouldn't punish for this, anyway. I can't remember when they ever have. I would be inconsistent to DQ Tajiri for persistant rule-breaking.

 

Consider:

 

1/ Chair-shots (foreign objects in general): If the ref sees you twat someone with an object, you're DQ'd. No argument.

 

2/ Low Blow: If the ref sees you it's an instant DQ. No arguments.

 

3/ Illegal Holds: You have 5 seconds to break it otherwise you are DQ'd. No argument.

 

4/ Closed Fist Punches: Now then, explain where THESE fit in? A closed fisted punch is an illegal move, no arguments. And each wrestler know this. So when does a closed fisted punch ACTUALLY become illegal? In pretty much every match you see someone strike another person with a closed fist and the ref says "hey, no fists!" (or whatever), but allows the match to continue.

 

Surely, in the same way as a chair-shot, one closed fist punch = DQ? No. So when do the rules come into effect with punches?

 

And we still don't have a definitive answer to the "submit within 5 seconds of the illegal hold" question, although Gringo has probably supplied the best answer we'll get.

 

Cheers!

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But what about this:

 

Isn't Tajiri's green mist a foreign substance? Obviously he doest spray when the ref is looking, but the ref would still be able to see it on the victim's face, so why doesn't the ref DQ him right there?

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In the case of the green mist...the universal wrestling law applies-

If the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen!

The ref can obviously see the mist residue,but in the end, its just the same as a chair shot or a blind tag.

The ref can see the bloody outcome of a chair shot but if he didn't see the actual offense in question than their is nothing he can do about it, unless the offender is still holding the chair!

 

It's kind of the same in a tag match...if you have ever noticed one member of a tag-team will tag the other member of that team and he will come into the ring, right?

Right?

But... if the ref didn't see it than he will force the newly tagged partner out of the ring.

...Unless...some refs will allow the tag if he hears it. So, one partner can 'tag' his partner by loudly claping his own hand while the ref's back is turned. Even if he is nowhere near his own corner!

*Pause for breath!*

 

So in the end it depends on the ref's perspective! We should all know by now...Pro-Wrestling referees are blonde...uh, I mean boned...uh, blind, damn' it blind!

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Ok here's one for you!

 

If Kane knocks down his oppo and blatantly chokes him on the floor til the ref counts to four then picks him up without releasing the choke and lifts him into a chokeslam for the pin will the ref count the 1,2,3 or does the ref not count the fall :help as the initial setup for the fall was illegal :?

Spiritchaser.

Molotov. :P

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They never count for the choke at the start of the Chokeslam... its true so if he lifts them and I've seen him do this to Hardcore Holly... and Big Show to others as well then the ref just lets them... no if or buts about it...

 

As for punches in the WWE, they are illegal but the ref just tells them off... in the FWA its a yellow card for one and a DQ if you do it again...

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Well his posts are spreading like cancer anyways... he's currently clogging up the Other Sports forum with drivel...

 

And yes the Bronco Buster is like the Tarantula subject to a five count as the victim is in the ropes... but I doubt people would give up to it... they'd just smack X-Pac...

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Standing on the top rope is an illegal 5 count move, but wrestlers perform moves which end up with a three count from it.

 

I think the point of is it/isn't it illegal would make a good story arc involving a ref.

 

But my point is this, a submission hold is broken when a person is holding the ropes (rope break), the tarantula has the opponent against the ropes, it isn't an illegal move par se, but it is an instant rope break, therefore a sumbission call is discounted and is why the five count is called, like someone holding on a leg lock while someone is holding the ropes.

 

Saracen

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Eeek... :eek Room spinning... :( Large words hurting head... :evil

 

Me no can keep up with all smart lawyer type peoples in TWO.

 

Me just get chair and start hitting all smart lawyer type peoples 'til discussion turn to things me understand, things like what color should wrestling ring be and whos baby Lita is having.

 

{Picking up brown folding chair}

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Don't know if anyone's noticed but how often do the ref's actually get to "5" for the DQ. It's normally "1, 2, 3 ,4, c'mon(apply appropriate name) get out of there or get off him/her. Sort of makes the whole argument redundant. Sorry! :devil
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